The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

Yup, exactly right.
Well it is scripturally refuted

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (NASB95) — 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.

Isaiah 55:7 (LEB) — 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”

Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”

Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

and thus we see both ability and accomplishment. Some do some don't
 
Well it is scripturally refuted

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (NASB95) — 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.

Isaiah 55:7 (LEB) — 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”

Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”

Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

and thus we see both ability and accomplishment. Some do some don't
Actually its not. "No man CAN come to me." "No one seeks after God". This we see inability unless God acts first.
 
Actually its not. "No man CAN come to me." "No one seeks after God". This we see inability unless God acts first.
the context above actually does not support your claims. Its only those men who ALREADY have been listening and learning from the Father who come and are drawn.

next fallacy. :)

hope this helps !!!
 
scripture overwhelmingly supports the new birth coming after faith. there is not a single passage they have to support the new birth coming before faith in the gospel message.

and we know 100% that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ ( the gospel ).

this should end the controversy but as we know some are stuck in man made doctrines and make void the word of Christ by their traditions.
I will end it with one question. No man calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit Did you call Christ Lord minus the Spirit?

Nothing good comes from the flesh. Is faith goid? Did you exercise faith in the flesh?
 
I will end it with one question. No man calls Christ Lord but by the Spirit Did you call Christ Lord minus the Spirit?

Nothing good comes from the flesh. Is faith goid? Did you exercise faith in the flesh?
you are diverting again lol. lets stick with the context of Johns gospel in chapter 6. :)

the above comments of yours are for another discussion.
 
the context above actually does not support your claims. Its only those men who ALREADY have been listening and learning from the Father who come and are drawn.

next fallacy. :)

hope this helps !!!
What they heard and learned they understood by the Spirit. See 1 Corin. 2
 
the context above actually does not support your claims. Its only those men who ALREADY have been listening and learning from the Father who come and are drawn.
It is EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION that is taught by the Father that comes ... 100% is not CHOICE, it is God's WILL.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:30 [ESV]

HE, not we! Soli Deo Gloria!
 
It is EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION that is taught by the Father that comes ... 100% is not CHOICE, it is God's WILL.

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Romans 8:30 [ESV]

HE, not we! Soli Deo Gloria!
None of that says regeneration precedes faith
 
None of that says regeneration precedes faith
Given that each PERSON in the conversation seems to hold a unique (personal) definition of "faith" ... I am not sure whether that is relevant or not. :unsure:

From where I sit on the sidelines:
  • God gave simple instructions (choose Life, not Death)
  • Everyone (all without exception: Ephesians 2:1-3) rejected God's directions (just like Adam and Eve).
  • God empowers "some" to come anyway (Draw: John 6:44 ... new heart ... made alive ... Romans 8: golden chain).
  • Those so empowered are "whosoever believes" (John 3) and gladly "hear" and "follow" (John 10).
  • Those not so empowered, see it all as "foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18) so God "gives them up" (Romans 1) to their own desires.
  • The "whosoever believes" are the ones that are forever transformed and freely obey our NEW MASTER (Romans 6-7).

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. - Hebrews 11:1 [ESV]
(IMHO it cheapens "faith" to reduce it to an argument over "a gift of belief" or "a gift for belief".)
 
Actually its not. "No man CAN come to me." "No one seeks after God". This we see inability unless God acts first.
You obviously did not read

Well it is scripturally refuted

Deuteronomy 30:10–20 (NASB95) — 10 if you obey the LORD your God to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and soul. 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it. 17 “But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24:15–31 (NASB95) — 15 “If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” 16 The people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods; 17 for the LORD our God is He who brought us and our fathers up out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and who did these great signs in our sight and preserved us through all the way in which we went and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 “The LORD drove out from before us all the peoples, even the Amorites who lived in the land. We also will serve the LORD, for He is our God.” 19 Then Joshua said to the people, “You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins. 20 “If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you after He has done good to you.” 21 The people said to Joshua, “No, but we will serve the LORD.” 22 Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves the LORD, to serve Him.” And they said, “We are witnesses.” 23 “Now therefore, put away the foreign gods which are in your midst, and incline your hearts to the LORD, the God of Israel.” 24 The people said to Joshua, “We will serve the LORD our God and we will obey His voice.” 25 So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and made for them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem. 26 And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the sanctuary of the LORD. 27 Joshua said to all the people, “Behold, this stone shall be for a witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do not deny your God.” 28 Then Joshua dismissed the people, each to his inheritance. 29 It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. 30 And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance in Timnath-serah, which is in the hill country of Ephraim, on the north of Mount Gaash. 31 Israel served the LORD all the days of Joshua and all the days of the elders who survived Joshua, and had known all the deeds of the LORD which He had done for Israel.

Israel here choose to and did serve God

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.

Isaiah 55:7 (LEB) — 7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Here we see man is able to believe

Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”

Here is a blessing upon those who hear and follow the word of God

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Here these repented

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”

Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’

the above repented

Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

God believes these would have repented

Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”

Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.

There above repented

2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

and thus we see both ability and accomplishment. Some do some don't
 
Actually its not. "No man CAN come to me." "No one seeks after God". This we see inability unless God acts first.
PS nowhere does scripture state no man can come to Christ

John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Those who believe Moses

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Those who had God as their father

John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.

Those desiring the will of God

John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.
 
Actually its not. "No man CAN come to me." "No one seeks after God". This we see inability unless God acts first.
PS nowhere does scripture state no man can come to Christ

John 6:45 (NASB95) — 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
:rolleyes:

John 6:43-45 [NASB95]
43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

  • v.43 JESUS is talking in these verses!
  • v.44 Not only does "scripture state no man can come to Christ" (you were mistaken in your claim), but JESUS HIMSELF SAID IT!
  • v.45 "EVERYONE" that "learned from the Father" comes to JESUS ... 100% ... all ... every single one. That is not "SOME CHOOSE", that is "GOD DRAWS"!
  • Note everything about "him" ... the "everyone" that learns and is drawn by the Father, DOES come to the Son and that same "him" is RAISED on the last day.
    • If all are taught and learn then all are drawn and come, and all will be raised on the last day. (not what Jesus said)
    • What Jesus said: "No one can" (that is human power)
    • What Jesus said: draws HIM, raise HIM, teach HIM, so that "him" WILL come (that is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8-9)
 
:rolleyes:

John 6:43-45 [NASB95]
43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

  • v.43 JESUS is talking in these verses!
  • v.44 Not only does "scripture state no man can come to Christ" (you were mistaken in your claim), but JESUS HIMSELF SAID IT!
  • v.45 "EVERYONE" that "learned from the Father" comes to JESUS ... 100% ... all ... every single one. That is not "SOME CHOOSE", that is "GOD DRAWS"!
  • Note everything about "him" ... the "everyone" that learns and is drawn by the Father, DOES come to the Son and that same "him" is RAISED on the last day.
    • If all are taught and learn then all are drawn and come, and all will be raised on the last day. (not what Jesus said)
    • What Jesus said: "No one can" (that is human power)
    • What Jesus said: draws HIM, raise HIM, teach HIM, so that "him" WILL come (that is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8-9)
Man may be drawn by the word

John 20:31 (NASB 95) — 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Romans 10:6–14 (NASB 95) — 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

Romans 1:16 (NASB 95) — 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The biblical gospel is not like the powerless Calvinist gospel

Rom 10:17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
 
Man may be drawn by the word
John 6:44-45 [NASB95]
45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Are you really claiming that EVERYONE is drawn to the Son and raised at the last day ... who hears the word?
What about JUDAS and the PRIESTS, SCRIBES and PHARISEES (brood of vipers) ... didn't they "hear the word"?

No, my friend, God may USE the word, but men are drawn by GOD!
 
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