civic
Active Member
That’s what I mean I’m using belief as a synonym for faith
The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel
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brightfame52
Active Member
What do you mean
civic
Active Member
Ditto
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You said that Christ only died for certain people and that covers their sin. Which includes unbelief.
If salvation is only about sin, then why do you preach faith?
I could say "duh" right here but I'll leave it out.
Cyrus
Active Member
For everyone ever born.
1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.Unlimited atonement says that Jesus died for everyone but that only those who respond in faith will reap the benefits of His sacrifice. In other words, Jesus’ death was sufficient for all, but only effectual for some (those who have faith).
If Jesus did not die for everyone, the reasoning goes, then the offer of salvation is empty, because the non-elect cannot be saved.
The teaching of unlimited atonement is based on verses such as 1 John 2:2, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
atpollard
Active Member
John Gill disagrees ...
Exposition by John Gill:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins
For the sins of us who now believe, and are Jews:
and not for ours only;
but for the sins of Old Testament saints, and of those who shall hereafter believe in Christ, and of the Gentiles also, signified in the next clause:
but also for [the sins] of the whole world;
the Syriac version renders it, "not for us only, but also for the whole world"; that is, not for the Jews only, for John was a Jew, and so were those he wrote unto, but for the Gentiles also. Nothing is more common in Jewish writings than to call the Gentiles (amle) , "the world"; and (Mlweh lk) , "the whole world"; and (Mlweh twmwa) , "the nations of the world"; (See Gill on 12:19); and the word "world" is so used in Scripture; see ( John 3:16 ) ( 4:42 ) ( Romans 11:12 Romans 11:15 ) ; and stands opposed to a notion the Jews have of the Gentiles, that (hrpk Nhl Nya) , "there is no propitiation for them": and it is easy to observe, that when this phrase is not used of the Gentiles, it is to be understood in a limited and restrained sense; as when they say,
``it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" went after him;''
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere it is said,
``(amle ylwk) , "the "whole world" has left the Misna, and gone after the "Gemara";''
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place,
``(amle ylwk) , "the whole world" fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;''
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said {q}, when
``R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" stood up before him;''
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added,
``when a great man makes a mourning, (amle ylwk) , "the whole world" come to honour him;''
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, (ygylp al amle ylwk) , "the whole world" is not divided, or does not dissent; (yrbo amle ylwk) , "the whole world" are of opinion, are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, "all the men of the world", only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, "all the world", or "the whole world", in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, ( Luke 2:1 ) ( Romans 1:8 ) ( 3:19 ) ( Colossians 1:6 ) ( Revelation 3:10 ) ( 12:9 ) ( 13:3 ) ; and so it is in this epistle, ( 1 John 5:19 ) ; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world; and the like distinction is in this text itself, for "the sins of the whole world" are opposed to "our sins", the sins of the apostle and others to whom he joins himself; who therefore belonged not to, nor were a part of the whole world, for whose sins Christ is a propitiation as for theirs: so that this passage cannot furnish out any argument for universal redemption; for besides these things, it may be further observed, that for whose sins Christ is a propitiation, their sins are atoned for and pardoned, and their persons justified from all sin, and so shall certainly be glorified, which is not true of the whole world, and every man and woman in it; moreover, Christ is a propitiation through faith in his blood, the benefit of his propitiatory sacrifice is only received and enjoyed through faith; so that in the event it appears that Christ is a propitiation only for believers, a character which does not agree with all mankind; add to this, that for whom Christ is a propitiation he is also an advocate, ( 1 John 2:1 ) ; but he is not an advocate for every individual person in the world; yea, there is a world he will not pray for ( John 17:9 ) , and consequently is not a propitiation for them. Once more, the design of the apostle in these words is to comfort his "little children" with the advocacy and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, who might fall into sin through weakness and inadvertency; but what comfort would it yield to a distressed mind, to be told that Christ was a propitiation not only for the sins of the apostles and other saints, but for the sins of every individual in the world, even of these that are in hell? Would it not be natural for persons in such circumstances to argue rather against, than for themselves, and conclude that seeing persons might be damned notwithstanding the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, that this might, and would be their case. In what sense Christ is a propitiation, (See Gill on Romans 3:25). The Jews have no notion of the Messiah as a propitiation or atonement; sometimes they say repentance atones for all sin; sometimes the death of the righteous; sometimes incense; sometimes the priests' garments; sometimes it is the day of atonement; and indeed they are in the utmost puzzle about atonement; and they even confess in their prayers, that they have now neither altar nor priest to atone for them; (See Gill on 1 John 4:10).
TibiasDad
Active Member
Cyrus
Active Member
I see your point, but since I was raised believing the sins whole world meant just that.
"and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world. "
Not a certain group of people or just the people in the room.
brightfame52
Active Member
I still don't understand what you're talking about
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes being born again is a benefit of Christ dying for your sins and being raised again 1st Peter 1:3. So if one is never born again Christ could not have died for their sins and was raised again for them. Being born again is one of the ways Christ saves His people from their sins
Joy
Active Member
It helps me.
atpollard
Active Member
For the record, changing your mind is not a hill that I would die on ... it MIGHT mean everyone.
Who Jesus chose to die for always seemed WAY above my pay grade ... and presumptuous of me to be telling HIM the answer. I just like to share good teachers that have another opinion so people at least KNOW there is another possibility.
- Just like I know that A.R. Fausset claims ...
1 John 2:2 "also for the sins of the whole world--
Christ's "advocacy" is limited to believers ( 1Jo 2:1 1Jo 1:7 ): His propitiation extends as widely as sin extends: see on JF & B for 2Pe 2:1, "denying the Lord that bought them." "The whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion of the world (compare 1Jo 4:14; and "the whole world," 1Jo 5:19 ). "Thou, too, art part of the world, so that thine heart cannot deceive itself and think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me" [LUTHER].
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Why is faith required?
I've said it for many many years. They way Calvinists treat the death of Christ for them, then all Christ had to do is show up and die.
So what does faith have to do with anything?
brightfame52
Active Member
Who said faith is required? Required for what?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Pleasing God. Do you remember those words?
brightfame52
Active Member
I don't know what you talking about , Christ pleased God and that's what saved them He died for. Sinners are not saved by pleasing God.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
You're lost in your rhetoric. You can't please God without faith. It is impossible to please God without faith.
civic
Active Member
in his theology believers are nothing but robots that are preprogrammed by their maker to do everything that has been written in their design.
brightfame52
Active Member
Pleasing God has nothing to do with how one is saved ,Christ pleased God and that's how he saved those he died for. Do you believe a person is saved by pleasing God?
Cyrus
Active Member
Calvinism Requires a Lens to See It in the Bible
Calvinism is taught by many theologians using the Bible, but it cannot be evidently seen in the Bible. The Bible is used to teach Calvinism, but the conclusions that Calvinism draws cannot be found in Scripture unless a reader is taught how to interpret the Bible Calvinistically.
In other words, Calvinism requires a lens – a particular way of looking at and interpreting Scripture – for it to be seen in the Bible. If a person were never sent to seminary (or a Reformed Church) and taught Calvinism, the chances of them reading the Bible and "discovering" it on their own are minute at best.
A Bible reader would likely never come to the conclusions that Calvinism draws by simply reading the Bible. Calvinism is a logical system based on some aspects of truth, but it is not the whole truth. If you were not taught Calvinism using a theological and philosophical system invented in the fourth century, you would never read the Bible and come to its conclusions on your own.
Calvinism is taught by many theologians using the Bible, but it cannot be evidently seen in the Bible. The Bible is used to teach Calvinism, but the conclusions that Calvinism draws cannot be found in Scripture unless a reader is taught how to interpret the Bible Calvinistically.
In other words, Calvinism requires a lens – a particular way of looking at and interpreting Scripture – for it to be seen in the Bible. If a person were never sent to seminary (or a Reformed Church) and taught Calvinism, the chances of them reading the Bible and "discovering" it on their own are minute at best.
A Bible reader would likely never come to the conclusions that Calvinism draws by simply reading the Bible. Calvinism is a logical system based on some aspects of truth, but it is not the whole truth. If you were not taught Calvinism using a theological and philosophical system invented in the fourth century, you would never read the Bible and come to its conclusions on your own.
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