MINE EYES HAVE SEEN THE GLORY - OR THEY HAVE NOT

[jeremiah1five]

Under the Law the Word of God was taught from one point of reference. Everyone was instructed and God's Law was explained to the people from one person (Moses) or persons, right? One over 10, one over 50, one over 100, etc., and explanation of God's Law was uniform, correct?
A father would be able to disseminate what Moses and the leadership said with regard to God's Law and it would be the same with every family, am I correct? They all saw the same God and for the most part said the same thing as God.
As opposed to "Christian" doctrine today in the Gentile world, where Mormons believe one thing and Baptists believe another and so forth. There is no central 'hub' (authority) from which teaching is derived unless one comes from a certain denomination, right?

But then God determines how much light a person and generation of persons receive to understanding of His Word. Then there is the "measure" [of faith which is based on knowledge] of His Word. Definitely, a believer of 40 years would know more of God's Word through study than a "newbie," yes? In effect, if faith rests on knowledge - and it does - a person of 40 years study would know more of God's Word than a person of one year. In effect, he would have more faith than the person of 1 year for he would have more to 'faith' (trust in) of God's Word.

Then there is "calling" and "gift(s)", right? If the people understood God's Law a certain way and yet that way or understanding is unmoored from the truth, the ministry of a prophet is to "point the true direction" of God's Word, right? He is, after all, the "pointing" finger in the hand of God, do you agree? Truth coming from him (or her) would be as if you were hearing God Himself, right?

And let's not forget God who blinds eyes and minds as well as opens blind eyes and minds. And of course, there is sin and self-will. Sin is not only death and death sin, but sin is also darkness and a person who is controlled by sin or sins - and God controls this as well - has their minds "darkened" and is unable to understand God's Word unless God's light is applied (shines) upon that person. God deliberately is the One who brings division and division of what people believe of His Word is directly controlled by God.

 

[TibiasDad]

Under the Law the Word of God was taught from one point of reference. Everyone was instructed and God's Law was explained to the people from one person (Moses) or persons, right? One over 10, one over 50, one over 100, etc., and explanation of God's Law was uniform, correct?
A father would be able to disseminate what Moses and the leadership said with regard to God's Law and it would be the same with every family, am I correct? They all saw the same God and for the most part said the same thing as God.
As opposed to "Christian" doctrine today in the Gentile world, where Mormons believe one thing and Baptists believe another and so forth. There is no central 'hub' (authority) from which teaching is derived unless one comes from a certain denomination, right?

But then God determines how much light a person and generation of persons receive to understanding of His Word. Then there is the "measure" [of faith which is based on knowledge] of His Word. Definitely, a believer of 40 years would know more of God's Word through study than a "newbie," yes? In effect, if faith rests on knowledge - and it does - a person of 40 years study would know more of God's Word than a person of one year. In effect, he would have more faith than the person of 1 year for he would have more to 'faith' (trust in) of God's Word.

Then there is "calling" and "gift(s)", right? If the people understood God's Law a certain way and yet that way or understanding is unmoored from the truth, the ministry of a prophet is to "point the true direction" of God's Word, right? He is, after all, the "pointing" finger in the hand of God, do you agree? Truth coming from him (or her) would be as if you were hearing God Himself, right?

And let's not forget God who blinds eyes and minds as well as opens blind eyes and minds. And of course, there is sin and self-will. Sin is not only death and death sin, but sin is also darkness and a person who is controlled by sin or sins - and God controls this as well - has their minds "darkened" and is unable to understand God's Word unless God's light is applied (shines) upon that person. God deliberately is the One who brings division and division of what people believe of His Word is directly controlled by God.

God is not the author of confusion! (1 Cor 14:33) God’s truth is, to we mere mortals, beyond our capacity to fully comprehend in every detail. There is room for intellectual differences of opinion, but love binds us together. Remember, the command of God is to love one another, not to have a lockstep understanding. He who Loves is of God; not he who is academically perfect!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

God is not the author of confusion! (1 Cor 14:33) God’s truth is, to we mere mortals, beyond our capacity to fully comprehend in every detail. There is room for intellectual differences of opinion, but love binds us together. Remember, the command of God is to love one another, not to have a lockstep understanding. He who Loves is of God; not he who is academically perfect!


Doug

God calls us to be "academically perfect." I can't love until I academically learn what love is and then obey the command God gives in WHO to love (psst...the answer is fellow brethren ONLY.)
We must all see the same Jesus. We must all say the same thing as God.
To do otherwise is to oppose Him.

 

[civic]

1 Cor 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing

 

[jeremiah1five]

1 Cor 13- If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing

Isn't Saul telling exactly what these instruments (sounding/tinkling - KJV) sound like?

 

[TibiasDad]

God calls us to be "academically perfect."

That’s Hezekiah 6:66 isn’t it! The only thing we are called to be perfect in, is love! (Matt 5:48)

Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

That’s Hezekiah 6:66 isn’t it! The only thing we are called to be perfect in, is love! (Matt 5:48)

Doug

No, Psalm 151.

Perfect, complete. But the thing is we are not yet perfect or complete.
Sadly, Gentile Christians fail in God's command to love and WHO to love. Gentile Christians sin against God when the give His Holy love to unholy, unsaved people.
Not even God casts His Pearls to swine, nor gives that which is holy to dogs (non-covenant.)
Gentile Christians are unfaithful to brethren when they give love God gave them to the ungodly sinner.
Adulterers and adulteresses, James calls them.
God's love is to be given to saved brethren ONLY.

 

[Grace ambassador]

God deliberately is the One who brings division and division of what people believe of His Word is directly controlled by God.

Highly doubtful, or COMPLETELY doubtful, because, Today, Under Grace, Scripturally:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of Peace, as in all churches of the saints."​

(1 Corinthians 14:33)​

​

ie: who is the author of more than a dozen religious views of water baptism?

"For God is not the author of [ ↑ this ↑ ] confusion,..."​

​

...but [ Is The Author ] of Peace, as in all churches of the saints."​

​

ie: The saints who are in agreement with God's One [ Spiritual ] Baptism, and
obeying God's Command [ being "called into fellowship with His SON! v 9 ]:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,​

that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among​

you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in​

the same judgment." (1 Corinthians 1:10)​

​

We could continue with Many controversies, but, in the end, Scripturally!:

​

"...God is not the author of confusion..."​

​

Mine eyes have "seen" The Peace Of God!!

Amen.

 

[TibiasDad]

No, Psalm 151.

So you admit it isn’t scriptural! At least we’re making progress!

Gentile Christians are unfaithful to brethren when they give love God gave them to the ungodly sinner.
Adulterers and adulteresses, James calls them.
God's love is to be given to saved brethren ONLY.

Jesus’s parable of the Good Samaritan soundly refutes this interpretation of the gospel and the Christian life. Do you not remember that “while we were yet sinners”, God loved us, and then commanded us to love others as he had loved us; which means to show sacrificial love to those that are yet sinners.

Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

Highly doubtful, or COMPLETELY doubtful, because, Today, Under Grace, Scripturally:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of Peace, as in all churches of the saints."​

(1 Corinthians 14:33)​

​

ie: who is the author of more than a dozen religious views of water baptism?

"For God is not the author of [ ↑ this ↑ ] confusion,..."​

​

...but [ Is The Author ] of Peace, as in all churches of the saints."​

​

ie: The saints who are in agreement with God's One [ Spiritual ] Baptism, and
obeying God's Command [ being "called into fellowship with His SON! v 9 ]:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,​

that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among​

you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in​

the same judgment." (1 Corinthians 1:10)​

​

We could continue with Many controversies, but, in the end, Scripturally!:

​

"...God is not the author of confusion..."​

​

Mine eyes have "seen" The Peace Of God!!

Amen.

Division is not confusion but decisiveness.

Only through division does distinction arise:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Mt 25:32–33.

What Christ does in dividing is bring exactness and distinction. Confusion is having all playing pieces from chess in one bag. When divided and set on the board in their proper places there is distinctness and definitiveness: Black verse white.

So then, you are in error to see division as confusion. However, Christ divides and through division there is peace. A church of believers that invites unbelievers to their Sunday service bring confusion whether they see it or not. Mixing of truth and lies and light and darkness is confusion. But when believers stand divided from unbelievers there is peace.

51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: Lk 12:51.

'Nuff said.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So you admit it isn’t scriptural! At least we’re making progress!

But it is reasonable.

Jesus’s parable of the Good Samaritan soundly refutes this interpretation of the gospel and the Christian life.

Every person in the "Good Samaritan" story was already in covenant. The priest, the Levite, the Samaritan. All in covenant. Go, and do likewise to your covenant brethren. Do not cast your pearls to swine (non-covenant) nor give that which is holy to dogs (non-covenant.) If you cast your pearls to swine and give that which is holy to unholy, unsaved people God calls those that do this "adulterers and adulteresses.

Do you not remember that “while we were yet sinners”, God loved us, and then commanded us to love others as he had loved us; which means to show sacrificial love to those that are yet sinners.

Doug

And the original command is to love brethren ONLY. Scripture cannot be broken. But broken humans can and do disobey God in this very thing when they love unsaved people.

 

[TibiasDad]

But it is reasonable.

Every person in the "Good Samaritan" story was already in covenant. The priest, the Levite, the Samaritan. All in covenant. Go, and do likewise to your covenant brethren. Do not cast your pearls to swine (non-covenant) nor give that which is holy to dogs (non-covenant.) If you cast your pearls to swine and give that which is holy to unholy, unsaved people God calls those that do this "adulterers and adulteresses.

And the original command is to love brethren ONLY. Scripture cannot be broken. But broken humans can and do disobey God in this very thing when they love unsaved people.

For God so loved the World, go and do likewise! That is the Lord’s command!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

But it is reasonable.

So is Atheism; it all depends on the validity of the premise! Scripture is our first and ultimate foundation!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

For God so loved the World, go and do likewise! That is the Lord’s command!

Doug

Ah, a Universalist. God loves everyone, huh?
Well, let me tell you about the problem with that erroneous belief and misunderstanding of God and His salvation not to mention His Word as well.
Israel's Redeemer travels in the power of His might. This includes His mighty love. But the fact is that not everyone is saved, nor will everyone be saved. So, this means His mighty love is puny if it does not save everyone.
Being a Covenant Messiah Promised to Israel His mighty love will save Israel to the uttermost. Israel is His Church and His Bride. Christ died for His Church (Eph. 5:25.)

Now, the word world refers in context to the "world" of Israel. God so loved His Bride Israel and died for His Bride Israel as per covenant and prophecy. If there is another word that could be used that encompasses ALL of Israel it would be here but there is no other word but the one we find in Scripture. So, "world" is in context to who He is speaking about to Nicodemus. Nicodemus understood Jesus' context being a covenant Messiah who came to and for Israel as per covenant and prophecy. If Nicodemus understood "world" to mean every living soul the discussion would have followed that tract just as Nicodemus had difficulty with "born-again" he, as a member of Sanhedrin would have had issues with that being a Judaizer. But he understood "world" meant Israel and not everyone.

God's love is mighty, and it will save and does save. But only the object of His love and they would be the apple of His eye Israel.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So is Atheism; it all depends on the validity of the premise! Scripture is our first and ultimate foundation!


Doug

Atheism is unreason-able. For it's a contradiction. By merely saying "I don't believe in God" (a-theist), one by their profession has brought God into existence. I don't believe in "that" (God.) There are no atheists in the world of humans. It's a lie.
The fool that says in his heart "there is no God" is not saying they don't believe in the existence of God. Saul says they are without excuse. They are in effect saying, "I don't believe God [will or does all those things He says He will do.]

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom. 1:20.

Remember, there is no such thing as a a-theist.

 

[TibiasDad]

Ah, a Universalist. God loves everyone, huh?

The two concepts are not necessarily the same, which demonstrates the weakness in your argument. A Universalist believes all will be saved in the end, which would of course mean God loves everyone, but to believe that God loves all, but that all are not saved is not Universalism.

All are not saved, but God loved them nonetheless, and desired them all to come to repentance, he wanted them “to seek him, perhaps reach out for him, and find him”, and he “was not very far from any one of them.” (Acts 17:27) This is the Biblical view, and what I believe. This is not a Universalist view.

Your argument is built on a similar flaw as the Universalist, @jeremiah1five; you both use your flawed understanding of God’s love to reach opposite conclusions. They say that if God loves everyone, therefore, God has to save everyone that he loves!

Your argument is very similar, in that you would agree that if God loves all, then all will be saved. So this either means that either God doesn’t love some people, or else God’s love is too weak to save some.

This is a false dichotomy because God’s loving all does not necessitate that no one can be lost, nor that because most are lost, that his love is too weak or inadequate to save them.

God is both willing and able to save all, and he has saved, and will save all who believe in Christ! That is his promise! “Let God be true, and every man a liar!” (Rom3:4)

Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

The two concepts are not necessarily the same, which demonstrates the weakness in your argument. A Universalist believes all will be saved in the end, which would of course mean God loves everyone, but to believe that God loves all, but that all are not saved is not Universalism.

The two 'concepts' are joined. IF God loves 'you' He will save 'you.' If God doesn't love 'you' God will not save 'you.' And God saves those He loves. He loves His Bride Israel. He loves His Church Israel, even died for His Church Israel "according to the Scriptures." That's the nature of His Love. None can get around it. Saul, writing to Jewish Christians at Ephesus said:

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we [Jews] are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph. 5:25–30.

Jesus Christ's own flesh are the Hebrew/Jews being born from the tribe of Judah. He loves His people and Bride Israel and died for His people and Bride Israel. That's the covenant. That's the prophecies. In a nutshell. The twelve tribes all the way back to Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) are of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones. He loved them to the uttermost.

All are not saved, but God loved them nonetheless, and desired them all to come to repentance, he wanted them “to seek him, perhaps reach out for him, and find him”, and he “was not very far from any one of them.” (Acts 17:27) This is the Biblical view, and what I believe. This is not a Universalist view.

Your quoting of Peter is misunderstanding WHO Peter was writing to and it was THEM that he said were to come to repentance:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us-ward] should perish, but that all [of us-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Pete 3:9.

He's writing to a people already saved:

SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Pe 1:1.

Your argument is built on a similar flaw as the Universalist, @jeremiah1five; you both use your flawed understanding of God’s love to reach opposite conclusions. They say that if God loves everyone, therefore, God has to save everyone that he loves!

That's what the Scripture teaches. Once you understand and accept the Scripture that God is betrothed to Israel, that Christ died for Israel His Church, then you'll come to the knowledge of the truth. Until then, YOUR biblical understanding is flawed looking at the Eternal Word like a Gentile and interpreting the Jewish Scripture with a Gentile mindset. God has covenant with Israel. Jesus is a Jewish Messiah and was covenanted and prophesied to and for Israel and to and for Israel He came.

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. Jn 1:31.

Your argument is very similar, in that you would agree that if God loves all, then all will be saved. So this either means that either God doesn’t love some people, or else God’s love is too weak to save some.

God doesn't love all. He loves His Church Israel and died for His Church and Bride Israel. God made no covenant with Gentiles. At the Marriage Supper Israel is there by Covenant. Gentiles are there by invitation (Matt. 22.)

This is a false dichotomy because God’s loving all does not necessitate that no one can be lost, nor that because most are lost, that his love is too weak or inadequate to save them.

I don't believe God's love is weak that it cannot save. He loved me and travelled in the power of His might and saved me. But as Scripture says: (Saul writing to Jewish Christians in Ephesus)

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:24–25.

God is both willing and able to save all, and he has saved, and will save all who believe in Christ! That is his promise! “Let God be true, and every man a liar!” (Rom3:4)
Doug

Sorry, but He is NOT willing to save all. He died for His Church and Israel is His Church. God has covenant with Israel. God doesn't have covenant with Gentiles. There is NOWHERE in the Law, Psalms, and Prophets God having covenant with hard-core, uncircumcised, non-covenant Gentiles. God loves Israel and sent His only-begotten Son to die for Israel. It's covenant and prophecy that proves this:

4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.

God gave NONE of these things to Gentiles.
NONE.

 

[TibiasDad]

Your quoting of Peter is misunderstanding WHO Peter was writing to and it was THEM that he said were to come to repentance:

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any [of us-ward] should perish, but that all [of us-ward] should come to repentance. 2 Pete 3:9.

He's writing to a people already saved

If they are already saved, they have already repented!


Doug

 

[jeremiah1five]

If they are already saved, they have already repented!


Doug

Not necessarily true.

The "us-ward" are ALL those in covenant with God. They ALL have not been born again, and if so, could also be backslidden back to Judaism to escape persecution from the Judaizers. I'm sure even today there are backslidden Christians that are prodigal and need to repent and return to Papa.

 

[TibiasDad]

Not necessarily true.

The "us-ward" are ALL those in covenant with God. They ALL have not been born again, and if so, could also be backslidden back to Judaism to escape persecution from the Judaizers. I'm sure even today there are backslidden Christians that are prodigal and need to repent and return to Papa.

All covenants are with men for the sake of other men or on behalf of all men. You are reading your theory into the text!

That Peter was writing to primarily Jewish believers, does not mean that he is only referring to Jewish believers. That something is written to, does not necessarily mean it is written about those to whom it is written. Peter’s words are directed at both Jews and Gentiles, thus mankind in general, the large majority of whom are not yet saved, and the logical object of God’s desire for their repentance.


Doug