Thanks. that is more useful detail of your view.
Let's Begin with the End
- Thread starter mikesw
- Start date
The beginning defined by and found in the end:
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.
HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!
It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus upon an ultimate value.
Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of every individual sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...
This implies that GOD would always save anyone who could be saved from their sins to become HIS Bride, and would never condemn then for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.
By their coming into being every single person must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by a mature free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible. No one inherited any sinfulness from Adam nor any judgement for any another person's sin.
IF we are fallen at our conception then it is because we made our free will decision to be fallen in HIS sight before our conception. Iow, our conception as sinners cannot have been our creation!
I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.
HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!
It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus upon an ultimate value.
Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of every individual sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...
This implies that GOD would always save anyone who could be saved from their sins to become HIS Bride, and would never condemn then for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.
By their coming into being every single person must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by a mature free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible. No one inherited any sinfulness from Adam nor any judgement for any another person's sin.
IF we are fallen at our conception then it is because we made our free will decision to be fallen in HIS sight before our conception. Iow, our conception as sinners cannot have been our creation!
I guess you believe the Rabbis didn't teach the people, to include the disciples, from their youth the end times prophecies? The disciples knew exactly what they were talking about. Do you believe they thought there was anything after the Kingdom, and that God's Kingdom would end? No, they knew that the world they knew at the time would end, but God's Kingdom would last forever. They had the 70 weeks prophecy in Daniel as well.
That is what you are doing. Except you're not, because you are ignoring those passages in the Old Testament.
Acts is pretty clear as to why they asked the question, when they asked their question there. 'Will you now return the Kingdom to Israel?"
I notice that you completely ignored the words they used, even though they were clearly defined for you. If you read what was written, you would learn that consummation isn't the end of everything, but the end of everything up to that point. Hence, consummation. It is translated as end in english, but in Greek it is consummation. All the parts that make up everything until now, come together and end, and the next stage/age begins. Perhaps you don't believe there is an eternal age coming, and that the disciples were truly ignorant of the Old Testament, and thus not worthy of being called Jews?
I do not know who said God's kingdom would end. I did not say that.
The 70 weeks time frame was the period for the Jewish people to repent before the kingdom started. This was to be the end of their transgressions for those who accepted the Messiah. (Dan 9:24)
We have to infer that the kingdom was restored to Israel but essentially through those who came to Christ. I would be curious which verses in the OT you think I have missed. I can miss some at times but unless a verse interrupts the pattern of scripture that I have come to understand, I will be content with what Daniel shows (and Moses, in Deut 32)
I have done the study on the meaning of "the end." We see it in Deut 32:29 as the latter end. The end of sacrifice and offering is in Dan 9:27, Dan 8:11,13, Dan 11:40, Dan 12:7. The idea is within Isa 10:20-22 (as called out by Rom 9:27) but is not as clear. The end of the nation also appears in John 11:47-51 where we see the nations was destroyed but the remnant (i.e., Christ followers of Israel) were preserved per Isa 10:20-22 to keep the nation in a heavenly sense.
If anyone has said the disciples did not know anything of the judgment coming upon jerusalem, they would be missing the basis for the question of Matt 24:3.
Anyhow. I do understand that you have a different concept of these things. It is certainly an option to treat these passages in your comprehension as you feel inclined. I'm hoping people can become aware of what end was defined, especially as found most clearly in Daniel-- and then work out the eschatology from there. I certainly believe Jesus had not changed the concept of the end that Daniel shares.
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I'm doing a second response to this part of an earlier reaction to what I shared.
A quick remark about the rabbis and teachings. We do not know quite what rabbis shared. The glimpse here is that some synagogues went through certain (or most or all) scrolls of the bible. There also are various additional writings they could share. I'm sure even the Pharisees were fine with these writings until the Messiah actually showed up.
Anyhow, I have shared verses about the end that led to judgment. That was basically the start of the kingdom. So you should be assured that the start of the kingdom is not affected by something that preceded it. I am suspecting you are placing the end in a different place from what Daniel reveals.
A major point I am sharing here is that people seem to have started with Matt 24 or Luke 21 to interpret all of eschatology instead of starting with the critical details of the OT, especially Daniel. If there are exceptions, it would be nice to hear about deeper studies.
DavidTree
Active Member
Your words which i have posted above is the Beginning and the End and the Beginning of God's Plan of Redemption
I'm getting confused by what is being posted. The basis of my thread has been regarding the end that would lie behind the question of the disciples in Matt 24:3 which would be found in Deut 32:29 and several verses in Daniel. Ted's post did not bring to mind the connection with the OT context. So, I had no response to it.
DavidTree
Active Member
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
The disciples of JESUS in Matthew 24:3, who do they represent?
That reminds me of the situation of a person going into court to defend themselves. The judge asks "are you representing yourself?" The defendant responds "I am not representing myself. I am myself."
They are speaking as Jews who have knowledge of their own cultural expectations which are combined with knowledge of Jesus as the one to meet those expectations. Jesus then shares a narrative that encompasses those prophecies about the Jews.
Some people then hold that Jesus shares events in addition to that expectation.
DavidTree
Active Member
Liked your story - AND - it fits perfectly with our topic/discussion
Were the disciples only 'Jews' with no other Representation???
Maybe the Galilean Fishermen Association and Judean Tax Collectors Fellowship. They were Jews asking about Jesus' fulfillment of the prophecies of their people. They do not seem to have any interest beyond that. No thought would even be given to gentiles being followers of the Christ.
DavidTree
Active Member
They were and are more then 'Jews' of the flesh = they were and are part of the Representative of Heaven = the Bride of Christ
Christ is the Representative of the FATHER = "If you have seen ME you have seen the FATHER" = "I and My Father are ONE"
This message was shared with them before Jesus' death and resurrection. At that point of the Matt 24 message, they were just stumbling disciples from among the Jews who were curious what Jesus was talking about.
DavidTree
Active Member
Was JESUS the Savior while still in Mary's womb?
YES, of course HE was, Mary prophesied He was and John the Baptist leaped with joy at the sound of pregnant Mary's voice.
DavidTree
Active Member
That's not what the Gospel declares of the disciples, except for Judas.
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”
14So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.
He is who he is. But nothing came into fruition until after his death and resurrection. Before that event, he was interacting with them in a fully Jewish context. Even in early chapters of Acts, his interaction was in the Jewish context but with unanticipated details of seeing Jesus resurrected and then seeing the Holy Spirit acting in their midst
DavidTree
Active Member
True in part but much more = much MORE!!!
DavidTree
Active Member
Let us go right to the Bullseye of Truth concerning who the disciples of Matthew chapter 24 were and are Today.
Now a discussion arose between some of John’s disciples and a Jew over purification. 26And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30He must increase, but I must decrease.”
Sure. we have that revelation. They understood this going in to Matt 24. They could say "amen" to all in accord with OT prophecy but still have no idea what Jesus was saying.
DavidTree
Active Member
The disciples are the Bride of Christ = chosen by the FATHER for His Son
They are the Bride asking the Groom: "When are you Coming for Me" =
a Marriage made in Heaven that consummates at His 2nd Coming
