John 3:16 rewritten by some to mean ?

[Soyeong]

Could you elaborate on that please.

I think it is possible for people to have such a poor understanding of salvation that they were never saved in the first place in spite of thinking that they were, but it is a cop out to say that this is the case for every last person who turns away from God without returning. The purpose of the doctrine of eternal security is to give us confidence in our security, but if you add the exception that we are eternally secure unless we happen to be someone who will turn away from God without returning to Him, then that doesn't give us any confidence in our security, and we still need to be careful not to fall away.

Certain things must be true of the man or the woman who intends to establish a relationship with holy God. There are changes to be made, changes that we are hopelessly incapable of making ourselves. Our sin has caused us to fall short of God’s standard. Thus in our natural state, we are destined for a godless eternity.

There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant in terms of being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the Mosaic Law is His instructions for how to have that relationship, which He said is not too difficult for us to follow (Deuteronomy 30:11-14). The Hebrew word "yada" refers to intimate relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too. It is possible for someone to end their relationship with God in a similar way that someone can end their relationship with their spouse and the fact that people can become divorced does not mean that they were never married in the first place.

 

[Dizerner]

We have voice chat now? I'm listening but I don't hear anything. Just kidding

Ever hear the phrase, "Listen to your conscience."

Things can speak without air waves vibrating.

 

[Ray]

This is definitely an interesting thread.

“You mean to tell me that people can trust Christ as their Savior and then turn around and live any way they please and still go to heaven?”

In almost every online discussion I have seen concerning eternal security, this question has been asked in some form or another. For many, this is the real issue. The very idea that a person can trust Christ in order to get “fire insurance,” with no intention of changing behavior, makes the doctrine of eternal security repugnant to them.

Such thinking is viewed by some as an attack on the holiness of God. “A holy God demands holy living from His children,” they argue. “A man or woman whose life–style in no way demonstrates a desire for Christ likeness could not possibly have the Holy Spirit within, regardless of what was prayed or confessed in the past.”

Those who hold this view perceive the doctrine of eternal security to be a license for sin. For this reason they consider eternal security a dangerous doctrine. And to be honest, the behavior of many “Christians” provides them with ample evidence to make such a claim.

Along these same lines, I've heard it argued that the doctrine of eternal security allows people to “get by” with their sin. They get both the benefit of heaven and the pleasure of sin. Eternal security is seen as a loophole in God’s economy.

What bothers me about this line of reasoning is not only used to cast doubt on the salvation of others.

 

[Dizerner]

In almost every online discussion I have seen concerning eternal security, this question has been asked in some form or another. For many, this is the real issue. The very idea that a person can trust Christ in order to get “fire insurance,” with no intention of changing behavior, makes the doctrine of eternal security repugnant to them.

Nah, it's not "repugnant" to me, like I'm just all self-righteous about it.

You think I think I'm earning my way to heaven? Each SECOND of my life I commit enough sin to send me to the PIT OF HELL.


But God can do things any way he wants, and we need to respect what his word tells us.

If God meant for his promises to have NO CONDITIONS, then there would be NO WARNINGS AT ALL in the Bible.


Period.

 

[Ray]

Ever hear the phrase, "Listen to your conscience."

Things can speak without air waves vibrating.

I don't know you will enough to let you anywhere near my conscience. And all that vibrating stuff... have you talked to anybody about that?

 

[Ray]

Nah, it's not "repugnant" to me, like I'm just all self-righteous about it.

You think I think I'm earning my way to heaven? Each SECOND of my life I commit enough sin to send me to the PIT OF HELL.


But God can do things any way he wants, and we need to respect what his word tells us.

If God meant for his promises to have NO CONDITIONS, then there would be NO WARNINGS AT ALL in the Bible.


Period.

Okay calm down take a deep breath.

 

[civic]

Not really. Eternal security is not a license to sin.

Exactly the new nature desires to please God with the new heart given by God. So much for yet another fallacious argument to defend an unbiblical position

 

[civic]

Okay calm down take a deep breath.

That reminds me of a few Calvinists on an old forum we use to be on who would tell that to the non Calvinists all the time. That was one of their favorite things to say lol. Deja vu.

 

[Soyeong]

Listen.

If you say keeping faith is somehow a work, then by that same logic your initial faith is also a work.

Just because you allow one "work" to get salvation, doesn't mean you aren't works salvation.

Therefore by this stunted logic, only the complete elimination of all free will choices is grace.

Even one tiny choice to "accept" Jesus with your free will, logically becomes works salvation.

Works salvation is the position that we need to first do works in order to result in earning our salvation as a wage, however, there can be many other reasons for why we are required to do works that have nothing to do with earning our salvation, so it is false that it is works salvation if it involves doing anything.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith. Our works are not about earning our salvation as wage, but about trusting in God with all of our heart, and it is by that faith that we are saved. Salvation through embodying God's word through faith is the same as salvation through faith in the one who is the embodiment of God's word.

 

[Obadiah]

Okay calm down take a deep breath.

Welcome to The Forum.

 

[Dizerner]

Works salvation is the position that we need to first do works in order to result in earning our salvation as a wage, however, there can be many other reasons for why we are required to do works that have nothing to do with earning our salvation, so it is false that it is works salvation if it involves doing anything.

I completely agree here, the logic is sound.

The problem I personally found is determining where I am secretly trying to merit something from God by what I do.

Hidden underneath our motivations, is a heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

We need to constantly pray for light on our motivations.

 

[civic]

Works salvation is the position that we need to first do works in order to result in earning our salvation as a wage, however, there can be many other reasons for why we are required to do works that have nothing to do with earning our salvation, so it is false that it is works salvation if it involves doing anything.

In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith. Our works are not about earning our salvation as wage, but about trusting in God with all of our heart, and it is by that faith that we are saved. Salvation through embodying God's word through faith is the same as salvation through faith in the one who is the embodiment of God's word.

Yes good good works are a result of true salvific faith as per Ephesians 2:10. They are a result of salvation not the means to salvation . They are the fruit that is attached and grows and nourished from the root.

 

[Dizerner]

Okay calm down take a deep breath.

Then stop making God out to be a liar when he says "You will surely die."

Imagine someone hurtling off a cliff, and you are shouting "Hey, watch out! WATCH OUT THERE!"

"Calm down buddy, take a breath, ha-ha. Everything's gonna be alllll riiiight."

Is it loving to just leave that person hurtling towards destruction?

Or is it loving to make some noise?

What do you think, brother.

 

[civic]

I completely agree here, the logic is sound.

The problem I personally found is determining where I am secretly trying to merit something from God by what I do.

Hidden underneath our motivations, is a heart deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

We need to constantly pray for light on our motivations.

Nope God gives a new heart and the old man is dead and crucified with Christ. That is what the Bible teaches. You have bought into more unsound teachings in Christendom.

 

[Dizerner]

I don't know you will enough to let you anywhere near my conscience. And all that vibrating stuff... have you talked to anybody about that?

Mockers will continue in the last days.

I recommend you stop mocking the things of God, and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

There is a God in heaven who sees those twisted insults.

 

[Dizerner]

Nope God gives a new heart and the old man is dead and crucified with Christ. That is what the Bible teaches. You have bought into more unsound teachings in Christendom.

Sorry, some of us put the BIBLE above compromising claims on an internet forum.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Cor. 10:12 NKJ)

 

[Soyeong]

Herein lies the problem. If God is perfect, He is perfectly just. How can a perfectly just God make a guilty person not guilty? As Dr. Ryrie says in Basic Theology,

There are only three options open to God as sinners stand in His courtroom. He must condemn them, compromise His own righteousness to receive them just the way they are, or He can change them into righteous people. If He can exercise the third option, then He can announce them righteous, which is justification.

Dr. Ryrie brings to our discussion a very important term, justification. To justify people is to declare them not guilty. In the book of Romans, Paul makes it clear that Christians have been justified. To him, there is no conflict between God’s justice and His willingness to justify sinners. He says,

For the demonstration.... of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 3:26

God does not wear rose–colored glasses. He is not in the habit of pretending something is true when in fact it isn’t. So how can He declare guilty men and women “not guilty”?

Paul sums up the answer to that question in his second letter to the Corinthians:

He made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

So if we're Justified and made not guilty, How is it we have the ability to put ourselves back under sin and death? How do we undo what God has already done?

To become a character trait is to become someone who practices that trait while it would be contradictory to become a character trait while not becoming someone who practices it, and the way to become a character trait is through faith that we ought to practice it, not earned as the result of having practiced it. For example, to become courageous is to become someone who practices courageousness, it would be contradictory to become courageous without becoming someone who practices courageousness, and the way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be courageous, not something that we earn as the result of having done actions that express courageousness. The same is true of becoming righteous.

 

[Bronson]

Mockers will continue in the last days.

I recommend you stop mocking the things of God, and conviction of the Holy Spirit.

There is a God in heaven who sees those twisted insults.

He's watching you.

 

[Bronson]

If God’s holiness compels Him to take back the gift of eternal life from certain believers because of their sin, one of two things is true: Either God compromises His holiness for a time— through their small sins— or man’s good works can meet God’s requirements for holiness —at least for a short period of time. In that case, Christ died needlessly.

 

[Ray]

Sorry, some of us put the BIBLE above compromising claims on an internet forum.

Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1 Cor. 10:12 NKJ)

Therefore let him who is a Bible bully knock it off.