James White affirms Libertarian Free Will.

[Kampioen]

However, under the basic premise of LIBERTARIAN Free Will, the draw of the Holy Spirit is not ESSENTIAL ... men are capable of naturally choosing to come on their own. Is that not the whole point of denying "Total Depravity (Inability)" from the Doctrines of Grace?

Nothing occurs without the Holy Spirit.

The concept of libertarian free will is created and upheld by God, otherwise even the concept wouldn't exist.

Even hell has to be held in existence.

I would say it is "Deprivity"/Deprivation, not Depravity.

Adam was blocked from access back to the garden, not that he didn't have libertarian free will to try to get back. And now men lack knowledge as well.

The Holy Spirit must enlighten/draw people and unblock access to God so that the option is open to the already existing libertarian free will, not a releasing from depravity of the will

 

[Jim]

You are welcome to your own opinion of course, but do not disparage others for their beliefs that God led them to. God Bless.

You mean like your response to me in your reply #35?

By the way, I do not believe that God led either Augustine or Spurgeon to believe in the false doctrine of Total Depravity.

 

[Jim]

However, under the basic premise of LIBERTARIAN Free Will, the draw of the Holy Spirit is not ESSENTIAL ... men are capable of naturally choosing to come on their own. Is that not the whole point of denying "Total Depravity (Inability)" from the Doctrines of Grace?

You are wrong. There is nothing under the premise of the free will of man denies the essential involvement of the Holy Spirit. Men are capable of choosing whether to believe the written word of God given to men through the work of the Holy Spirit. Faith comes from hearing the word about God, about Jesus, about the gospel.

And the whole point of denying the doctrine of Total Depravity is that the doctrine is absolutely false and and an affront to God.

 

[brightfame52]

The Holy Spirit must enlighten/draw people and unblock access to God so that the option is open to the already existing libertarian free will, not a releasing from depravity of the will

The Holy Spirit must give life because man is dead to God by nature.

 

[atpollard]

You are wrong. There is nothing under the premise of the free will of man denies the essential involvement of the Holy Spirit.

No, I am not ... but you have a right to be incorrect in understanding that if an act of God is ESSENTIAL for salvation, then people are not 100% free to choose by their own will (they MUST be drawn, by (I)rresistible grace, because they are (T)otally incapable of choosing without assistance).

 

[Jim]

No, I am not ... but you have a right to be incorrect in understanding that if an act of God is ESSENTIAL for salvation, then people are not 100% free to choose by their own will (they MUST be drawn, by (I)rresistible grace, because they are (T)otally incapable of choosing without assistance).

Yes, the act of God is essential for salvation. The problem with your assessment here is that God has made promises that given that people make the right choice, that essential act will occur. The right choice is to believe the word of God and through that believing in God and obeying.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the act of God is essential for salvation.

Yes because otherwise man is dead. Only God can give life from the dead lest you figure mans freewill lends a hand in that miracle.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, the act of God is essential for salvation. The problem with your assessment here is that God has made promises that given that people make the right choice, that essential act will occur. The right choice is to believe the word of God and through that believing in God and obeying.

Lost sinners cannot do that until and unless the Holy Spirit grants them a new mind and a new heart to receive and believe

 

[Jim]

Lost sinners cannot do that until and unless the Holy Spirit grants them a new mind and a new heart to receive and believe

Do you not understand that would make God responsible for the eternal condemnation independent of anything done by the one being condemned. That is the attribute you wish to apply to your god? Seriously?

 

[brightfame52]

Do you not understand that would make God responsible for the eternal condemnation independent of anything done by the one being condemned. That is the attribute you wish to apply to your god? Seriously?

You late, man by his own freewill became accountable and condemned in Adam. Rom 5 16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification

Its a wrap, the only deliverance is by free gift which isnt owed to anyone. So all of Adams natural posterity is born already condemned. There only hope is if theyre one of Gods election of grace, if not, its a wrap

 

[Jim]

Its a wrap, the only deliverance is by free gift which isnt owed to anyone. So all of Adams natural posterity is born already condemned. There only hope is if theyre one of Gods election of grace, if not, its a wrap

That would have been the case were it not for Jesus' one act of obedience. The point of verses 18-19 is that the result of the one act of Jesus was to set aside, to negate, to undue any result from the one act of Adam. That is the only way that in verse 17, Paul could say that the effect of Jesus' gift was much greater than the effect of Adam's sin.

 

[brightfame52]

The point of verses 18-19 is that the result of the one act of Jesus was to set aside, to negate, to undue any result from the one act of Adam.

Rom 5 is all about the elect

 

[Jim]

Rom 5 is all about the elect

If only you knew anything about the elect, who they are and how they got that way. But alas, being a student and follower of Augustine, you don't.

 

[brightfame52]

If only you knew anything about the elect, who they are and how they got that way. But alas, being a student and follower of Augustine, you don't.

Rom 5 is describing the experience the elect had in Adam, and then the experience they shall have in Christ.

 

[AaronH]

To this day, I've never heard a satisfactory answer to the question:

Why does God get angry at people for doing that which He inalterably foreordained them to do?

 

[brightfame52]

Before regeneration mans will is at enmity against the True God and cant obey/submit to Him Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But if and when God regenerates a man and imparts a new Spiritual dynamic in a man, that person now can be and will be subject to God, to the praise and honor of Gods Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

The doctrine of free will is that which makes God a respecter of persons and salvation a reward rather than a gift! It says God seen something in me or saw something I will do to save me, that He didn't see in other sinners. So that's why He chose me, if we are talking about election. They will appeal to such scripture as 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[AaronH]

The doctrine of free will is that which makes God a respecter of persons and salvation a reward rather than a gift! It says God seen something in me or saw something I will do to save me, that He didn't see in other sinners. So that's why He chose me, if we are talking about election. They will appeal to such scripture as 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God is light in whom there is no darkness at all, per 1 John 1:5.

A god who would create people who have no ability to respond or be saved is a god in whom there is much darkness.

Now, insisting upon the interpretation that makes God out to have much darkness in him, when there are other reasonable ways to interpret the scriptures you site, I'd be inclined to reconsider.

 

[Jim]

To this day, I've never heard a satisfactory answer to the question:

There isn't one.

Why does God get angry at people for doing that which He inalterably foreordained them to do?

He doesn't. The very idea that God would get angry at people for doing that which He inalterably foreordained them to do is a sick joke and terribly demeans and humiliates God.

 

[Jim]

Rom 5 is describing the experience the elect had in Adam, and then the experience they shall have in Christ.

What does in Adam mean? The only place that phrase is even used is 1 Corinthians 15:22. There it signifies the entire human race. And in that verse the corresponding phrase "in Christ" signifies the entire human race as well because it is speaking of the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns and that includes the entire human race.

The phrases "in Adam" and "in Christ" do not appear anywhere in Romans 5.

Again, you simply make stuff up to fit your fraudulent and deceptive religion.