Is God really Immutable ?
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civic
Well-known member
33 categories and 570 verses about God changing His mind.
opentheism.org
Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
If God's character changes, then He isn't Eternal. Experience doesn't change God.
However, God certainly does change His mind when dealing with mutable things. Circumstances change and God changes His mind. Relative to His on Council and Character, He never changes. Which is the central tenant of fairness with God.
However, God certainly does change His mind when dealing with mutable things. Circumstances change and God changes His mind. Relative to His on Council and Character, He never changes. Which is the central tenant of fairness with God.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Greek paganism is very simplistic. It was molded in theater and fictional entertainment. It never was a serious attempt at establishing a valid theology surrounding God. That why when a seasoned theologian has a philosophical debate with a pagan, they always lose. Their theology is nothing more than superficial nonsense.
civic
Well-known member
I'm going to be reworking what I use to believe with what I now believe and come up with a new list of Gods attributes. For example Gods Immutability will be reworked to be about His character not His actions in time/space with man. I think scholars have danced around this with the Incarnation because of their strict definition of immutable. The reality is there was a change that took place in the Incarnation. Scholars like to say there was no change with the Son, but in fact there was since He permanently took upon Himself humanity. I can see how the non trins have trouble with the doctrine because of how it has ben defined in the past. I think theologians have created these apparent contradictions and have created more problems than they have solved. This is also where the kenosis issues come into play with Phil 2. Even the creeds over the years expanded and evolved because they didn't like what what going on with Christ's humanity and Him not being a human person vs a divine person. This is still a hot topic among modern christendom.
Johann
Well-known member
The immutability of God (His quality of not changing) is clearly taught throughout Scripture. For example, in Malachi 3:6 God affirms, "I the Lord do not change." (See also Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; and Ezekiel 24:14.)
James 1:17 also teaches the immutability of God: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning.” The “shadow of turning” refers to our perspective on the sun: it is eclipsed it moves and it casts its shadow. The sun rises and sets, appears and disappears every day; it comes out of one tropic and enters into another at certain seasons of the year. But with God, who, spiritually speaking, is light itself, there is no darkness at all; there is no change with Him, nor anything like it. God is unchangeable in His nature, perfections, purposes, promises, and gifts. He, being holy, cannot turn to that which is evil; nor can He, who is the fountain of light, be the cause of darkness. Since every good and perfect gift comes from Him, evil cannot proceed from Him, nor can He tempt any to it (James 1:13). The Bible is clear that God does not change His mind, His will, or His nature.
There are several logical reasons why God must be immutable, that is, why it is impossible for God to change. First, if anything changes, it must do so in some chronological order. There must be a point in time before the change and a point in time after the change. Therefore, for change to take place it must happen within the constraints of time; however, God is eternal and exists outside of the constraints of time (Psalm 33:11; 41:13; 90:2-4; John 17:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Second, the immutability of God is necessary for His perfection. If anything changes, it must change for the better or the worse, because a change that makes no difference is not a change. For change to take place, either something that is needed is added, which is a change for the better; or something that is needed is lost, which is a change for the worse. But, since God is perfect, He does not need anything. Therefore, He cannot change for the better. If God were to lose something, He would no longer be perfect; therefore, He cannot change for the worse.
Third, the immutability of God is related to His omniscience. When someone changes his/her mind, it is often because new information has come to light that was not previously known or because the circumstances have changed and require a different attitude or action. Because God is omniscient, He cannot learn something new that He did not already know. So, when the Bible speaks of God changing His mind, it must be understood that the circumstance or situation has changed, not God. When Exodus 32:14 and 1 Samuel 15:11-29 speak of God changing His mind, it is simply describing a change of dispensation and outward dealings toward man.
Numbers 23:19 clearly presents the immutability of God: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” No, God does not change His mind. These verses affirm the doctrine of God’s immutability: He is unchanging and unchangeable.
What is the immutability of God? | GotQuestions.org
What is the immutability of God? What does it mean that God is immutable?
www.gotquestions.org
One question-you think God can change?
J.
Johann
Well-known member
Question:
The Bible says God cannot change (Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 102:26-27; Malachi 3:6; Romans 11:29; Hebrews 6:17-18; James 1:17), and that he is all-knowing (Cf. Job 37:16; Psalm 147:4-5; 1 John 3:20). But the New Testament teaches that Jesus did change and that he didn't even know the day or hour of his return (Cf. Mark 13:32; Luke 2:40,52). How can Jesus be God if he doesn't even have these essential attributes of God?
Answer:
Before we start addressing the question, we must first clarify what the Holy Bible means that God cannot change. According to the Holy Scriptures, God is a Dynamic Being, not a static entity, who interacts with his creation and often manifests his presence in a visible manner within time and space. This implies that when the Bible speaks of God's unchangeability, or immutability, this is referring to God's essence, his attributes, his purpose, his decrees, but it doesn't mean that God is immobile or immovable, that God is static and doesn't act or interact with his creatures.
With the foregoing in mind, we can now proceed to the question. The Holy Scriptures teach that the Lord Jesus is God's eternal Word who became flesh, who became a real human being. The same Scriptures also teach that Christ is fully God in nature, having all the essential attributes of Deity (Cf. John 1:1-3, 14; Colossians 2:9). Now Jesus didn't relinquish his Deity in order to become man, but retained his divine nature since he can never cease being God. This is where his immutability comes in. At Christ's Incarnation, there wasn't a subtraction of his Deity, but an addition of humanity; he added, not subtracted, something to his own divine Person.
Thus, when we take into account all of what the Scriptures teach about the Lord Jesus, we come to the conclusion that Christ is immutable as far as his divine nature is concerned, that Christ never ceased having all of the divine attributes even while on earth in the form of a man. But, at the same time, the Lord Jesus was also mutable in relation to his human nature. After his resurrection, Christ's human nature is no longer experiencing growth or change since it is now glorified and has attained complete human perfection. In other words, after the resurrection Christ’s physical body became immortal.
This is the reason why the same Scriptures can speak of Christ being omniscient, or all-knowing, while not knowing the day or hour of his return. Basically, this is another example of a both/and scenario, that Christ was both immutable and mutable, two seemingly contradictory set of attributes coexisting side by side in the one divine Person of Jesus, since he had two distinct natures simultaneously.
We don't pretend to claim that we have this figured out, or know exactly how this works in every detail. We just know that this is what the Holy Bible, God's true Word, teaches.
Here, now, is the biblical evidence supporting the fact that Christ, as far as his Deity was concerned, is immutable and omniscient even while on earth, before and after his resurrection:
"But of the Son he says ... ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’" Hebrews 1:8a, 10-12
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8
The author refers to Jesus’ pre-incarnate state, to his pre-human existence, when Christ created the cosmos and explicitly says that, from the very time that creation came into being, Christ remains the same. Therefore, Christ is immutable! And, as we already noted, there is obviously something different after the Incarnation, since Christ took on a human nature. Yet Jesus’ divine nature never changed since he never ceased being God even while on earth.
"But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, 'Why do you think evil in your hearts?'" Matthew 9:4
Christ knew what these individuals were thinking within their hearts, a knowledge which the Old Testament says only God has:
"then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you ONLY, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)," 1 Kings 8:39
"For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done." Matthew 16:27
Christ performs a function which the Old Testament scriptures say Yahweh will perform when he comes to judge the people:
"Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him." Isaiah 40:10
"and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work." Psalm 62:12
Christ is, therefore, affirming to have the same omni-attributes that God alone has, since this is the only way he could be able to know and repay a person for what he/she has done. In other words, Christ is identifying himself as Yahweh God!
"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.' Nathanael said to him, 'Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, 'Come and see." Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, 'Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!' Nathanael said to him, 'How do you know me?' Jesus answered him, 'Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I SAW YOU.' Nathanael answered him, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!'" John 1:45-49
Without having been physically present in the same vicinity where Nathanael lay, Jesus already had seen him.
"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14
Jesus is able to both hear and answer all the prayers offered to him, requiring him to be both omniscient and omnipotent.
"Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.' Jesus answered them, 'Do you now believe?'" John 16:30-31
"He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.'" John 21:17
In these citations, both before and after the resurrection, the Apostles acknowledge that Christ is omniscient.
"Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5
According to Paul, the Lord who is coming to judge the intents and motives is the Lord Jesus:
"so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:7-8
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:10
Again, Jesus knows what only God can know:
"And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9
Christ, while in heavenly glory, gave his beloved John the following revelation to pass on to the Churches:
"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze... and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.'" Revelation 2:18, 23
Jesus applies the following Old Testament language to himself, thereby identifying himself as Yahweh God:
"I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:10
Again, that Christ can know what is in the hearts and minds of all the people in order to repay them accordingly presupposes both his omniscience and omnipotence, as well as highlighting that he has inexhaustible means or resources at his disposal!
The foregoing conclusively shows that the Lord Jesus is indeed immutable and omniscient in relation to his Deity, while being mutable and not all-knowing as far as his human nature is concerned. But even his human nature has undergone a transformation after the resurrection, achieving its full human potential, i.e. immortality, indestructibility etc. (Cf. Luke 13:32; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49; Hebrews 7:16, 25).
Now that we have provided the biblical evidence which establishes Christ's immutability, we want to take a closer look at Mark 13:32 in order to show how this passage establishes Christ's supremacy over all creation. The text says:
"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32
There is clearly an order of ascendancy here, i.e. man, angels, the Son, and then the Father. Christ is implicitly presenting himself as being superior to both men and angels, being subject only to the Father's authority. This is how it would look if we were to put it in terms of rank:
The Father.
The Son.
The angels.
Fallen humanity.
This understanding bears out when we realize that man, according to the Holy Bible, is positionally lower than the angels for the time being, not having the glory which the angels currently have due to the fall of man. It is only in Christ that persons can reclaim and regain the glory which they had in Adam before the fall, and because of our union with Jesus we are thereby exalted higher than the angels in position (Cf. Hebrews 2:1-9).
In fact, in the very same chapter of Mark, Jesus says that both the angels and God's elect belong to him, coming under his sovereign headship and authority:
"And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather HIS elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." Mark 13:26-27
Thus, Jesus plainly taught that he is superior to all creation, which would include all the prophets, and is subject only to his divine Father.
J.
The Bible says God cannot change (Cf. Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Psalm 102:26-27; Malachi 3:6; Romans 11:29; Hebrews 6:17-18; James 1:17), and that he is all-knowing (Cf. Job 37:16; Psalm 147:4-5; 1 John 3:20). But the New Testament teaches that Jesus did change and that he didn't even know the day or hour of his return (Cf. Mark 13:32; Luke 2:40,52). How can Jesus be God if he doesn't even have these essential attributes of God?
Answer:
Before we start addressing the question, we must first clarify what the Holy Bible means that God cannot change. According to the Holy Scriptures, God is a Dynamic Being, not a static entity, who interacts with his creation and often manifests his presence in a visible manner within time and space. This implies that when the Bible speaks of God's unchangeability, or immutability, this is referring to God's essence, his attributes, his purpose, his decrees, but it doesn't mean that God is immobile or immovable, that God is static and doesn't act or interact with his creatures.
With the foregoing in mind, we can now proceed to the question. The Holy Scriptures teach that the Lord Jesus is God's eternal Word who became flesh, who became a real human being. The same Scriptures also teach that Christ is fully God in nature, having all the essential attributes of Deity (Cf. John 1:1-3, 14; Colossians 2:9). Now Jesus didn't relinquish his Deity in order to become man, but retained his divine nature since he can never cease being God. This is where his immutability comes in. At Christ's Incarnation, there wasn't a subtraction of his Deity, but an addition of humanity; he added, not subtracted, something to his own divine Person.
Thus, when we take into account all of what the Scriptures teach about the Lord Jesus, we come to the conclusion that Christ is immutable as far as his divine nature is concerned, that Christ never ceased having all of the divine attributes even while on earth in the form of a man. But, at the same time, the Lord Jesus was also mutable in relation to his human nature. After his resurrection, Christ's human nature is no longer experiencing growth or change since it is now glorified and has attained complete human perfection. In other words, after the resurrection Christ’s physical body became immortal.
This is the reason why the same Scriptures can speak of Christ being omniscient, or all-knowing, while not knowing the day or hour of his return. Basically, this is another example of a both/and scenario, that Christ was both immutable and mutable, two seemingly contradictory set of attributes coexisting side by side in the one divine Person of Jesus, since he had two distinct natures simultaneously.
We don't pretend to claim that we have this figured out, or know exactly how this works in every detail. We just know that this is what the Holy Bible, God's true Word, teaches.
Here, now, is the biblical evidence supporting the fact that Christ, as far as his Deity was concerned, is immutable and omniscient even while on earth, before and after his resurrection:
"But of the Son he says ... ‘You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.’" Hebrews 1:8a, 10-12
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8
The author refers to Jesus’ pre-incarnate state, to his pre-human existence, when Christ created the cosmos and explicitly says that, from the very time that creation came into being, Christ remains the same. Therefore, Christ is immutable! And, as we already noted, there is obviously something different after the Incarnation, since Christ took on a human nature. Yet Jesus’ divine nature never changed since he never ceased being God even while on earth.
"But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, 'Why do you think evil in your hearts?'" Matthew 9:4
Christ knew what these individuals were thinking within their hearts, a knowledge which the Old Testament says only God has:
"then hear in heaven your dwelling place and forgive and act and render to each whose heart you know, according to all his ways (for you, you ONLY, know the hearts of all the children of mankind)," 1 Kings 8:39
"For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done." Matthew 16:27
Christ performs a function which the Old Testament scriptures say Yahweh will perform when he comes to judge the people:
"Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him; behold, his reward is with him, and his recompense before him." Isaiah 40:10
"and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For you will render to a man according to his work." Psalm 62:12
Christ is, therefore, affirming to have the same omni-attributes that God alone has, since this is the only way he could be able to know and repay a person for what he/she has done. In other words, Christ is identifying himself as Yahweh God!
"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.' Nathanael said to him, 'Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Philip said to him, 'Come and see." Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, 'Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!' Nathanael said to him, 'How do you know me?' Jesus answered him, 'Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I SAW YOU.' Nathanael answered him, 'Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!'" John 1:45-49
Without having been physically present in the same vicinity where Nathanael lay, Jesus already had seen him.
"Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask ME anything in my name, I will do it." John 14:13-14
Jesus is able to both hear and answer all the prayers offered to him, requiring him to be both omniscient and omnipotent.
"Now we know that you know all things and do not need anyone to question you; this is why we believe that you came from God.' Jesus answered them, 'Do you now believe?'" John 16:30-31
"He said to him the third time, 'Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, 'Do you love me?' and he said to him, 'Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.' Jesus said to him, 'Feed my sheep.'" John 21:17
In these citations, both before and after the resurrection, the Apostles acknowledge that Christ is omniscient.
"Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God." 1 Corinthians 4:5
According to Paul, the Lord who is coming to judge the intents and motives is the Lord Jesus:
"so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 1:7-8
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." 2 Corinthians 5:10
Again, Jesus knows what only God can know:
"And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever." 1 Chronicles 28:9
Christ, while in heavenly glory, gave his beloved John the following revelation to pass on to the Churches:
"And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: 'The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze... and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.'" Revelation 2:18, 23
Jesus applies the following Old Testament language to himself, thereby identifying himself as Yahweh God:
"I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds." Jeremiah 17:10
Again, that Christ can know what is in the hearts and minds of all the people in order to repay them accordingly presupposes both his omniscience and omnipotence, as well as highlighting that he has inexhaustible means or resources at his disposal!
The foregoing conclusively shows that the Lord Jesus is indeed immutable and omniscient in relation to his Deity, while being mutable and not all-knowing as far as his human nature is concerned. But even his human nature has undergone a transformation after the resurrection, achieving its full human potential, i.e. immortality, indestructibility etc. (Cf. Luke 13:32; 1 Corinthians 15:35-49; Hebrews 7:16, 25).
Now that we have provided the biblical evidence which establishes Christ's immutability, we want to take a closer look at Mark 13:32 in order to show how this passage establishes Christ's supremacy over all creation. The text says:
"But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Mark 13:32
There is clearly an order of ascendancy here, i.e. man, angels, the Son, and then the Father. Christ is implicitly presenting himself as being superior to both men and angels, being subject only to the Father's authority. This is how it would look if we were to put it in terms of rank:
The Father.
The Son.
The angels.
Fallen humanity.
This understanding bears out when we realize that man, according to the Holy Bible, is positionally lower than the angels for the time being, not having the glory which the angels currently have due to the fall of man. It is only in Christ that persons can reclaim and regain the glory which they had in Adam before the fall, and because of our union with Jesus we are thereby exalted higher than the angels in position (Cf. Hebrews 2:1-9).
In fact, in the very same chapter of Mark, Jesus says that both the angels and God's elect belong to him, coming under his sovereign headship and authority:
"And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather HIS elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." Mark 13:26-27
Thus, Jesus plainly taught that he is superior to all creation, which would include all the prophets, and is subject only to his divine Father.
J.
civic
Well-known member
yes its about His character not His changing His mind which there are 100's of verses where God changes His mind.The immutability of God (His quality of not changing) is clearly taught throughout Scripture. For example, in Malachi 3:6 God affirms, "I the Lord do not change." (See also Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Isaiah 46:9-11; and Ezekiel 24:14.)
James 1:17 also teaches the immutability of God: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness nor shadow of turning.” The “shadow of turning” refers to our perspective on the sun: it is eclipsed it moves and it casts its shadow. The sun rises and sets, appears and disappears every day; it comes out of one tropic and enters into another at certain seasons of the year. But with God, who, spiritually speaking, is light itself, there is no darkness at all; there is no change with Him, nor anything like it. God is unchangeable in His nature, perfections, purposes, promises, and gifts. He, being holy, cannot turn to that which is evil; nor can He, who is the fountain of light, be the cause of darkness. Since every good and perfect gift comes from Him, evil cannot proceed from Him, nor can He tempt any to it (James 1:13). The Bible is clear that God does not change His mind, His will, or His nature.
There are several logical reasons why God must be immutable, that is, why it is impossible for God to change. First, if anything changes, it must do so in some chronological order. There must be a point in time before the change and a point in time after the change. Therefore, for change to take place it must happen within the constraints of time; however, God is eternal and exists outside of the constraints of time (Psalm 33:11; 41:13; 90:2-4; John 17:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
Second, the immutability of God is necessary for His perfection. If anything changes, it must change for the better or the worse, because a change that makes no difference is not a change. For change to take place, either something that is needed is added, which is a change for the better; or something that is needed is lost, which is a change for the worse. But, since God is perfect, He does not need anything. Therefore, He cannot change for the better. If God were to lose something, He would no longer be perfect; therefore, He cannot change for the worse.
Third, the immutability of God is related to His omniscience. When someone changes his/her mind, it is often because new information has come to light that was not previously known or because the circumstances have changed and require a different attitude or action. Because God is omniscient, He cannot learn something new that He did not already know. So, when the Bible speaks of God changing His mind, it must be understood that the circumstance or situation has changed, not God. When Exodus 32:14 and 1 Samuel 15:11-29 speak of God changing His mind, it is simply describing a change of dispensation and outward dealings toward man.
Numbers 23:19 clearly presents the immutability of God: “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” No, God does not change His mind. These verses affirm the doctrine of God’s immutability: He is unchanging and unchangeable.
What is the immutability of God? | GotQuestions.org
What is the immutability of God? What does it mean that God is immutable?www.gotquestions.org
One question-you think God can change?
J.
God does not lie and cannot lie as man does. in this God is immutable.
Johann
Well-known member
hopefully those who read this thread will watch this short video from the OP.
J.
civic
Well-known member
If God is Spirit and God became human then by definition God changed.
But His character did not change. Do you see the difference this way with immutable ? Immutable cannot be a blanket statement that is all inclusive of everything. This is where theologians miss the mark with God.
Also there are over 500 verses in the Bible where God changed His mind. So once again this would be in conflict with the traditional definition and view of immutable. So theologians typically dance around this on pins and needles explains it away. The problem is with immutability in theological circles, not with God. This is where they fail placing God into their tiny theological box.
hope this helps !!!
Johann
Well-known member
That was actually a link-
Wayne Grudem's "Systematic Theology"
Millard J. Erickson's "Christian Theology"
Norman Geisler's "Systematic Theology"
These works discuss the nuances of God's immutability and how it relates to the incarnation and biblical passages that suggest a dynamic relationship with humanity.
J.
civic
Well-known member
Yes I have a thread about God being dynamic not static. God is not outside of time, He is actively involved in time. This also would fly in the face of God being eternally immutable. He changed from being outside of time/space to being in time/space as a man. This is another change with God.
civic
Well-known member
I’m a Christian not a Greek! Is God Static?
Posted on December 9, 2019Is God static, or dynamic? Is God a God of ‘feeling,’ or is He a God aloof? Clearly, according to Scripture, God is dynamic. Clearly, according to Scripture, God ‘feels’ and has emotion. But from early on in the Church’s tradition the theologians have felt it necessary, instead, to affirm that God is static and without emotion (i.e. He is ‘passionless’).
Whether theologians found Platonic speculation compatible with the gospel or incompatible with it, they were agreed that the Christian understanding of the relation between Creator and creature required “the concept of an entirely static God, with eminent reality, in relation to an entirely fluent world, with deficient reality”—a concept that came into Christian doctrine from Greek philosophy.[1]
I’m a Christian not a Greek! Is God Static?
Is God static, or dynamic? Is God a God of ‘feeling,’ or is He a God aloof? Clearly, according to Scripture, God is dynamic. Clearly, according to Scripture, God ‘feels’ and has emotion. But from e…
civic
Well-known member
There are really four distinct views on Divine Foreknowledge:
1. Simple Foreknowledge
2. Open View
3. Middle Knowledge
4. Augustinian-Calvinist
In this episode, Warren discusses Dynamic Omniscience, what it entails and what it does not. This is a long episode where viewer questions are included in the mix, some on topic, many are not.
Essentially, Dynamic Omniscience is the belief that God knows all things. However, here knowledge is not viewed through Platonist lenses where "perfect knowledge" equates to knowing only facts, but also includes "would counterfactuals" as well as "might counterfactuals". Therefore "perfect knowledge" is considered perfect in an epistemological sense.
Think of Dynamic Omniscience as approaching God's Middle Knowledge from an Open starting point. Thus Dynamic Omniscience can properly be called "neo-Molinism" or the "Infinite Mind" of God. God genuinely knows possibilities, their associated probabilities, He can know impossibilities and He can know His own decrees and whether they're conditional or unconditional.
While God knows of possibilities, His knowledge is not faulty and thus He doesn't know this in the same sense or epistemological category as He would a fact, or an unconditional decree.
Dynamic Omniscience recognizes that the future is partially fixed as it pertains to God's unconditional decrees, while it is also partially open as reality allows and accounts for genuine possibilities. Thus, it can be argued that Dynamic Omniscience incorporates the best of the four main views while not harming either the holiness and good nature of God, nor harming his perfect knowledge, nor denying Him the ability to decree what He wishes, nor falling into fatalism inherent in theistic determinism and thus recognizing that man is responsible. Warren McGrew
hope this helps !!!
1. Simple Foreknowledge
2. Open View
3. Middle Knowledge
4. Augustinian-Calvinist
In this episode, Warren discusses Dynamic Omniscience, what it entails and what it does not. This is a long episode where viewer questions are included in the mix, some on topic, many are not.
Essentially, Dynamic Omniscience is the belief that God knows all things. However, here knowledge is not viewed through Platonist lenses where "perfect knowledge" equates to knowing only facts, but also includes "would counterfactuals" as well as "might counterfactuals". Therefore "perfect knowledge" is considered perfect in an epistemological sense.
Think of Dynamic Omniscience as approaching God's Middle Knowledge from an Open starting point. Thus Dynamic Omniscience can properly be called "neo-Molinism" or the "Infinite Mind" of God. God genuinely knows possibilities, their associated probabilities, He can know impossibilities and He can know His own decrees and whether they're conditional or unconditional.
While God knows of possibilities, His knowledge is not faulty and thus He doesn't know this in the same sense or epistemological category as He would a fact, or an unconditional decree.
Dynamic Omniscience recognizes that the future is partially fixed as it pertains to God's unconditional decrees, while it is also partially open as reality allows and accounts for genuine possibilities. Thus, it can be argued that Dynamic Omniscience incorporates the best of the four main views while not harming either the holiness and good nature of God, nor harming his perfect knowledge, nor denying Him the ability to decree what He wishes, nor falling into fatalism inherent in theistic determinism and thus recognizing that man is responsible. Warren McGrew
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There is a difference between knowing what something equals and experiencing it ourselves. There is no doubt that Christ learned through His experience. His faithfulness to us in His Priestly work is about His empathy in our judgement of death and all things associated with such experiences.
He has proven Himself to us in more ways that we can ever imagine. His Empathy is beyond question and Divine in it's nature.
civic
Well-known member
Amen
