How do the unsaved suffer forever in hell without the Tree of Life?

[mikesw]

I am a teacher and do not glory in myself, but in Christ who takes away the sin of the world and given a message for the Church. I did nothing of myself. The sin in my nature was lifted out of me after me trying and failing month after month. Just as Paul did, I give Jesus all the praise and glory. It may be a bit of jealousy on your part and Paul says that is good. Just know that there are false teachers in the world taught by demons themselves who want to keep you defeated. Don't let them win. There IS freedom from sin.

hmm. You think I would have jealousy for your doctrinal views? I do not see that happening. Again you are claiming some superior doctrine and view of yourself. That can be sin in and of itself. So consider that.

Revelation 22:11 shows four groups and their state when they die. The last two are the righteous and the holy. They are the ones made sinless and made perfect by Jesus. It is not obeying written laws, but our Spirit-filled conscience. The righteous are sinless of sins unto death; and the holy have been perfected by the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit which is what 2 Peter 1:2-11 shows.

Funny that you misapply 2 Peter 2 after your reading was shown to be errant. That is another side of pride.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the Jews. Don't forget Jesus is coming for a spotless Bride.

Paul's writings to the Galatians, especially in chapter five is to show the difference between the born again of the SPIRIT, and those taught to again walk in the carnal flesh to try and save themselves with Jewish rules. We only need to abide in Jesus, and that includes you. Jesus said, and you SHALL BE MADE PERFECT, as your Father in heaven is perfect. That means not of ourselves. Jesus does it all as the Author and Finisher of our faith. From faith to faith. From glory to glory.

You are not made perfect because you somehow have been separated from your sins. You are made perfect because God views us in light of the cleansing of the blood of the Lamb.

Just know that Jesus must first be the Author of our faith, in order to "finish" what He started. Many in the church have not let Jesus even get started. They don't want to have a personal relationship with God; they just don't want to go to hell. Their relationship with God is anything but personal, it is distant at best. He wants us to abide in the shelter of the Almighty. He want us to boldly go to the throne of Grace and call Him, Abba.

I'm letting you know Jesus was not lying.

Well thanks for at least recognizing Jesus was not lying. It is not what he says that boggles the mind. It is the self-agrandizement that you share that is hard to accept.

 

[Victoria]

Yes, it is my opinion. But Paul and the other disciples were commanded to WAIT in Jerusalem, and yet Peter couldn't wait to make the eleven, twelve again, so stooped to gambling where a winner was guaranteed. Jesus doesn't need gimmicks. He chose Paul Himself to go to the Gentiles.

Saul is first mentioned in Acts 7:58, & his conversion doesn't occur until Acts 9.

Acts 1:21-23 states the following:

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained
to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Again, Paul doesn't qualify b/c as you can see above, he doesn't meet the requirements.

Was Ananias and Sapphira sealed and in heaven now?

Acts 5 is prior to Acts 9

V, our body is NOT our sin nature and doesn't need to be transformed yet. It is our inner spirit and soul that is born again NOW before death. Some teach the heresy that we will still sin until we die and leave these bodies and receive a new body. Is that what you've been taught? Look what Paul says about "the flesh" (sin nature).

In order for someone to be born again, they'd have to be born a first time. Paul tells us that we're a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15), one new man (Ephesians 2:15). Something new = no prior existence

Now, if we're talking about the actual nation of Israel, sure, they were born of God a first time in Exodus 4:22:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:"

It all makes sense now why Jesus, His audience being the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24), tells Nicodemus that not only he, but ALL of Israel needs to be born again... as a nation. Replacement/Covenant Theology isn't Bibical.

 

[charismaticlady]

hmm. You think I would have jealousy for your doctrinal views? I do not see that happening. Again you are claiming some superior doctrine and view of yourself. That can be sin in and of itself. So consider that.

It doesn't have to do with you and me, but the power of our God. Mine is all powerful. Yours leaves you with a sin nature.

Funny that you misapply 2 Peter 2 after your reading was shown to be errant. That is another side of pride.

What do you make of Peter saying that the result of how I look at these verses is that we will "NEVER STUMBLE"? That is perfection, the higher level after Jesus making us literally righteous/sinless of sins unto death. I'm not going to argue over which of us has the most pride. But I will argue that my God is bigger and more powerful than your god.

You are not made perfect because you somehow have been separated from your sins. You are made perfect because God views us in light of the cleansing of the blood of the Lamb.

It is the cleansing of that blood that takes away our sin. I get the impression that you believe that old doctrine of demons that the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin like a screen over a cesspool. You still stink. I've got news for you. The Father sees EVERYTHING.

Saul is first mentioned in Acts 7:58, & his conversion doesn't occur until Acts 9.

Acts 1:21-23 states the following:

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained
to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Again, Paul doesn't qualify b/c as you can see above, he doesn't meet the requirements.

LOL My typo. I meant Peter.

Acts 5 is prior to Acts 9

So no one was sealed in Acts 2?

In order for someone to be born again, they'd have to be born a first time. Paul tells us that we're a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15), one new man (Ephesians 2:15). Something new = no prior existence

Now, if we're talking about the actual nation of Israel, sure, they were born of God a first time in Exodus 4:22:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:"

It all makes sense now why Jesus, His audience being the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24), tells Nicodemus that not only he, but ALL of Israel needs to be born again... as a nation. Replacement/Covenant Theology isn't Bibical.

Curious what you think the "water" is.

 

[mikesw]

It doesn't have to do with you and me, but the power of our God. Mine is all powerful. Yours leaves you with a sin nature.

You do not have to defame the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob here. That is very bad to do.

What do you make of Peter saying that the result of how I look at these verses is that we will "NEVER STUMBLE"? That is perfection, the higher level after Jesus making us literally righteous/sinless of sins unto death. I'm not going to argue over which of us has the most pride. But I will argue that my God is bigger and more powerful than your god.

You overstate the significance of this passage. It allows for growth and its implication is that the Christian will not fall away from God, not that they will not do errors such as defaming God or accusing other Christians of failing compared to you.

It is the cleansing of that blood that takes away our sin. I get the impression that you believe that old doctrine of demons that the blood of Jesus merely covers our sin like a screen over a cesspool. You still stink. I've got news for you. The Father sees EVERYTHING.

Wow. More self-righteous denouncing of a Christian. Of course you must win many arguments by calling bible instruction as doctrines of demons. You have stumble many times in these several posts. The cure is in Jesus

 

[charismaticlady]

You do not have to defame the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob here. That is very bad to do.

I'm not the one who believes when Jesus takes away our sin, He leaves the source. Its not just you, but every denomination out there. It is not what the Bible teaches about the power of God, and His freeing us from sin. Paul had to battle the same wrong type of teachings in his day. John says, "the truth shall set you free. "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

You overstate the significance of this passage. It allows for growth and its implication is that the Christian will not fall away from God, not that they will not do errors such as defaming God or accusing other Christians of failing compared to you.

This passage is for Christians who no longer have a sin nature, and they settle for that. There is a second type of sin that needs to be grown out of over time - immature fruit of the Spirit. Once mature, they go from righteous to holy and never stumble.

Wow. More self-righteous denouncing of a Christian. Of course you must win many arguments by calling bible instruction as doctrines of demons. You have stumble many times in these several posts. The cure is in Jesus

It is the Bible that draws attention to doctrines of demons that want to keep Christians believing their sins don't matter just as long as you believe who Jesus is. Demons know that too. Sin matters.

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[mikesw]

I'm not the one who believes when Jesus takes away our sin, He leaves the source. Its not just you, but every denomination out there. It is not what the Bible teaches about the power of God, and His freeing us from sin. Paul had to battle the same wrong type of teachings in his day. John says, "the truth shall set you free. "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

I can say this in another way. You have overstated the meaning of the passages you prefer and diminished the passages that you think go against your view. You have further stated that your interpretation is the only correct one and thus have created a barrier of pride against open discussions.

This passage is for Christians who no longer have a sin nature, and they settle for that. There is a second type of sin that needs to be grown out of over time - immature fruit of the Spirit. Once mature, they go from righteous to holy and never stumble.

You obviously have not read Romans 7:7 to 8:2 that shows the conflict that the gentile believers had when not realizing the provision of Christ to seek to live in the Spirit rather than the flesh.

It is the Bible that draws attention to doctrines of demons that want to keep Christians believing their sins don't matter just as long as you believe who Jesus is. Demons know that too. Sin matters.

Wow. You make demons the main influencers over Christians. But somehow you are one of the few that are superior and thus free of sin, except for the many times you have sinned just in these forum discussions.

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So you seek to push people into the condition of people to whom Jesus had addressed directly and somehow claim that it applies to Christians other than yourself. Maybe you need to be on the alert in your own life. I hope these points help.

 

[charismaticlady]

I can say this in another way. You have overstated the meaning of the passages you prefer and diminished the passages that you think go against your view. You have further stated that your interpretation is the only correct one and thus have created a barrier of pride against open discussions.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Seems pretty clear to me. Those who willfully sin will not be in heaven/"abiding in the house forever."

You obviously have not read Romans 7:7 to 8:2 that shows the conflict that the gentile believers had when not realizing the provision of Christ to seek to live in the Spirit rather than the flesh.

Funny that you should start at verse 7 and forget the context of verses 5-6. 14-25 are those still enslaved in sin, seeing as 8:2 states Paul is free from 14-25.

Wow. You make demons the main influencers over Christians. But somehow you are one of the few that are superior and thus free of sin, except for the many times you have sinned just in these forum discussions.

Do you know anyone who hates mankind worse than demons? Here is the truth. Take it or leave it.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

So you seek to push people into the condition of people to whom Jesus had addressed directly and somehow claim that it applies to Christians other than yourself. Maybe you need to be on the alert in your own life. I hope these points help.

This fits many denominationalists who believe heretical teachings of demons. I'm here to warn them, and to vouch for the power of the blood of Jesus declared in verses you think overstate the real state of Christians. My mission is to the Church, especially to a few particular denominations started at the time of the Reformation who started cessationism among other heresies who Jesus says, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead," except for men like John Wesley who brought back "holiness," and Jesus says, "walk with Christ in white."

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[Victoria]

LOL My typo. I meant Peter.

Jesus chose twelve disciples that will sit upon twelves thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:27-28):

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matthias was the replacement for Judas Iscariot to number the then eleven disciples back to twelve (Acts 1:21-22):

Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Saul of Tarsus (Paul) was a chosen vessel of Jesus' to bear His name before the Gentiles (Acts 9:15):

But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he [Saul of Tarsus] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

One apostle to the Body of Christ:

"For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:" Romans 11:13

"(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles" Galatians 2:8

"Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity." 1 Timothy 2:7

"Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." 2 Timothy 1:11

So no one was sealed in Acts 2?

No. You'll only find being sealed under Paul's apostleship in Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30.

Curious what you think the "water" is.

Regarding baptisms, I posted on this, page 7 of this thread:

Verse List: Baptisms in The Bible

 

[mikesw]

“Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Seems pretty clear to me. Those who willfully sin will not be in heaven/"abiding in the house forever."

Again. the problem is your application of Jesus's admonishment against the people there. The resurrection has not happened yet and thus these verses do not fit well as in a direct reading to Christians. Those who heard Jesus failed to recognize the aspect of sin among them for which they were enslaved. Better exegesis would be a plus here than just sharing the words with some unmentioned application behind your view.

Funny that you should start at verse 7 and forget the context of verses 5-6. 14-25 are those still enslaved in sin, seeing as 8:2 states Paul is free from 14-25.

It is okay that you do not follow what Paul is sharing. He is helping them understand the flesh is weak but they still are redeemed in Christ and need to shift focus to the things of the Spirit. I cannot accept your argument when you do not accept Paul's argument.

Do you know anyone who hates mankind worse than demons? Here is the truth. Take it or leave it.

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That passage does not mention demons nor the motivations of demons. Can you share the context and goal of 1 John 3 to consider whether you have misrepresented John's epistle.

This fits many denominationalists who believe heretical teachings of demons. I'm here to warn them, and to vouch for the power of the blood of Jesus declared in verses you think overstate the real state of Christians.

I forgot. God made you a judge over all of Christianity and you get to decide the true doctrine for everyone. That is an amazing gift and power and glory you have been given as a ministry.

My mission is to the Church, especially to a few particular denominations started at the time of the Reformation who started cessationism among other heresies who Jesus says, "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead," except for men like John Wesley who brought back "holiness," and Jesus says, "walk with Christ in white."

I'm here to warn that charismatic groups have tended to form healing ministries and prophetic ministry that go contrary to the patterns shared in the first century. There may be spontaneous healing scenarios in evangelism but those who claim to be healers or prophets are just attractions for the foolish. If individuals have given prophecies or seen dramatic healings happening in limited situations, that is proper according to the scriptural record.

Matthew 7:19-23
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matt 7 is the warning to the Israel people. I see you fear what is not yours to fear.

 

[JesusFan]

Do you remember when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I had been in the church already for 30 years before I did. It is not automatic when you know about Jesus and accept who He is. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an actual experience. It is unmistakable and supernatural. It is not something "imputed" as some teach about receiving Christ's righteousness. The sin nature is literally removed out of you. It felt like a heavy weight just floated out of me. I felt light as a feather. And the most important thing was I no longer had any desire to commit a sin of lawlessness. It had been completely removed.


Yes, it is my opinion. But Paul and the other disciples were commanded to WAIT in Jerusalem, and yet Peter couldn't wait to make the eleven, twelve again, so stooped to gambling where a winner was guaranteed. Jesus doesn't need gimmicks. He chose Paul Himself to go to the Gentiles.


Was Ananias and Sapphira sealed and in heaven now?


Not if you believe Scripture instead of your false teachers. If you have a sin nature, that makes you a slave to sin and lost. I am a slave to righteousness and saved.



V, our body is NOT our sin nature and doesn't need to be transformed yet. It is our inner spirit and soul that is born again NOW before death. Some teach the heresy that we will still sin until we die and leave these bodies and receive a new body. Is that what you've been taught? Look what Paul says about "the flesh" (sin nature).

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Your verse Phil. 3:21 is the same as Romans 8:10 which is not transformed yet like our "flesh"/nature. "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." This "sin" Paul spoke of is Adam's sin, which affected every person thereafter. Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." There are some who interpret this last verse as being after being born again. Do you?

Phil. 3:21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

All saved and redeemed received that Holy Spirit Baptism at born again, as that is what qualifies as being born from above now

 

[JesusFan]

One more thing, Mike. I see you are of the doctrine of using 1 John 1:9 in a never ending situation of sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent ad infinitum. That is false. It is the same as Acts 2:38 Repent, ....and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Why is the Holy Spirit in you important? Because after cleansing you of all unrighteousness by taking away the desire to commit any lawlessness. Then as you walk in the Spirit 1 John 1:7 you may unintentionally act out immaturely and Jesus' blood automatically cleanses them.

The forums are a great place to see your own growth. I've been on Christian forums for almost 20 years and I can see how Jesus has matured me by seeing I don't react the same way I once did. Just abide in Him. Read the Word daily, and He will show you things you never saw before.

Chapter 7 of Romans shows to us after getting saved even Apostle Paul struggled against His l\flesh, are you superior to Paul now then?

 

[JesusFan]

Do you remember when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I had been in the church already for 30 years before I did. It is not automatic when you know about Jesus and accept who He is. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is an actual experience. It is unmistakable and supernatural. It is not something "imputed" as some teach about receiving Christ's righteousness. The sin nature is literally removed out of you. It felt like a heavy weight just floated out of me. I felt light as a feather. And the most important thing was I no longer had any desire to commit a sin of lawlessness. It had been completely removed.


Yes, it is my opinion. But Paul and the other disciples were commanded to WAIT in Jerusalem, and yet Peter couldn't wait to make the eleven, twelve again, so stooped to gambling where a winner was guaranteed. Jesus doesn't need gimmicks. He chose Paul Himself to go to the Gentiles.


Was Ananias and Sapphira sealed and in heaven now?


Not if you believe Scripture instead of your false teachers. If you have a sin nature, that makes you a slave to sin and lost. I am a slave to righteousness and saved.



V, our body is NOT our sin nature and doesn't need to be transformed yet. It is our inner spirit and soul that is born again NOW before death. Some teach the heresy that we will still sin until we die and leave these bodies and receive a new body. Is that what you've been taught? Look what Paul says about "the flesh" (sin nature).

Romans 8:8-9
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Your verse Phil. 3:21 is the same as Romans 8:10 which is not transformed yet like our "flesh"/nature. "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." This "sin" Paul spoke of is Adam's sin, which affected every person thereafter. Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." There are some who interpret this last verse as being after being born again. Do you?

Phil. 3:21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

When you refer to the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, do you mean it as being the second act of grace, shown by the gift of tongues then?