Christian Destinies

[mikesw]

This is a repost of a topic posted earlier. The title was too obscure, so I have a new title.

Christians seem to get several things mixed together in their thinking:

1. Christian status in the current era
2. Temporary status from death until a later status transition occurs
3. Eschatological status – this may be the same as the temporary status
4. Eschatological resurrection
5. Maybe a final status and destination

There are many mistakes made in the conception of eschatology. One of those is to what end the idea of eschatology refers. I suggest that an obvious missed item is that of a final status and destination. That last entry should point to a clear restoration of the the earth and garden of Eden existence of saints. Per chance, a different destination could be planned for the saints that from this simple idea, but it seems illogical to miss some preservation of the earth. The fall appears to require restoration of both the earth and the people.

A book I have been reading clarifies that Christians do not end up in heaven. I might add sort of an interim stay in Paradise with some equivalence to our idea of heaven, but the book is generally right. The other emphasis is on the restoration of the earth which is treated as holistic eschatology,but the case was not made well as to how that fits in.

One aspect missed regarding the New Jerusalem involves the visiting of kings and the light to nations appears. Of course this requires kings and nations to exist. I'm not sure how that fits into various eschatological views, but it tends to say there are nations and kings after the New Jerusalem appears and other people disappeared, and this, per most perspectives, would happen after the judgments of Revelation 20.

A goal in the analysis of Eschatology is to consider how all the pieces fit together. I'm curious what people see of Christian participation in the 5 areas listed above.

 

[JoshebB]

This is a repost of a topic posted earlier. The title was too obscure, so I have a new title.

Christians seem to get several things mixed together in their thinking:

1. Christian status in the current era
2. Temporary status from death until a later status transition occurs
3. Eschatological status – this may be the same as the temporary status
4. Eschatological resurrection
5. Maybe a final status and destination

There are many mistakes made in the conception of eschatology. One of those is to what end the idea of eschatology refers. I suggest that an obvious missed item is that of a final status and destination. That last entry should point to a clear restoration of the the earth and garden of Eden existence of saints. Per chance, a different destination could be planned for the saints that from this simple idea, but it seems illogical to miss some preservation of the earth. The fall appears to require restoration of both the earth and the people.

A book I have been reading clarifies that Christians do not end up in heaven. I might add sort of an interim stay in Paradise with some equivalence to our idea of heaven, but the book is generally right. The other emphasis is on the restoration of the earth which is treated as holistic eschatology,but the case was not made well as to how that fits in.

One aspect missed regarding the New Jerusalem involves the visiting of kings and the light to nations appears. Of course this requires kings and nations to exist. I'm not sure how that fits into various eschatological views, but it tends to say there are nations and kings after the New Jerusalem appears and other people disappeared, and this, per most perspectives, would happen after the judgments of Revelation 20.

A goal in the analysis of Eschatology is to consider how all the pieces fit together. I'm curious what people see of Christian participation in the 5 areas listed above.

Do you think all scripture's mentions of an "end" refer to the same end? Do you think all mentions of "last days," or "last times" refer to the exact same event? When scripture states an end has occurred, do you think it is appropriate to read that text to mean the end is still ending?

1. Do you think all scripture's mentions of an "end" refer to the same end?
2. Do you think all mentions of "last days," or "last times" refer to the exact same event?
3. Do you think the phrases, "last days" and the "last times" are synonymous?
4. When scripture states an end has occurred, do you think it is appropriate to read that text to mean the end is still ending?

.

 

[JoshebB]

This is a repost of a topic posted earlier. The title was too obscure, so I have a new title.

Christians seem to get several things mixed together in their thinking:

1. Christian status in the current era
2. Temporary status from death until a later status transition occurs
3. Eschatological status – this may be the same as the temporary status
4. Eschatological resurrection
5. Maybe a final status and destination

There are many mistakes made in the conception of eschatology. One of those is to what end the idea of eschatology refers. I suggest that an obvious missed item is that of a final status and destination. That last entry should point to a clear restoration of the the earth and garden of Eden existence of saints. Per chance, a different destination could be planned for the saints that from this simple idea, but it seems illogical to miss some preservation of the earth. The fall appears to require restoration of both the earth and the people.

A book I have been reading clarifies that Christians do not end up in heaven. I might add sort of an interim stay in Paradise with some equivalence to our idea of heaven, but the book is generally right. The other emphasis is on the restoration of the earth which is treated as holistic eschatology,but the case was not made well as to how that fits in.

One aspect missed regarding the New Jerusalem involves the visiting of kings and the light to nations appears. Of course this requires kings and nations to exist.

Unless the language is figurative and intended by God to be read that way.

Do you believe Jesus is NOW King of all kings, and Lord of all other lords? Do you believe ALL power and authority has NOW been given to him? Do you believe he is NOW seated far above all rule, authority, power, dominion, and every name in every age?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

 

[JoshebB]

This is a repost of a topic posted earlier. The title was too obscure, so I have a new title.

Christians seem to get several things mixed together in their thinking:

1. Christian status in the current era
2. Temporary status from death until a later status transition occurs
3. Eschatological status – this may be the same as the temporary status
4. Eschatological resurrection
5. Maybe a final status and destination

There are many mistakes made in the conception of eschatology. One of those is to what end the idea of eschatology refers.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree. (That's why I asked some presuppositional inquiries )


.

 

[mikesw]

Unless the language is figurative and intended by God to be read that way.

Do you believe Jesus is NOW King of all kings, and Lord of all other lords? Do you believe ALL power and authority has NOW been given to him? Do you believe he is NOW seated far above all rule, authority, power, dominion, and every name in every age?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

I have not figured out how these questions answer what I was inquiring about in the original post.

 

[Selah]

This is a repost of a topic posted earlier. The title was too obscure, so I have a new title.

Christians seem to get several things mixed together in their thinking:

1. Christian status in the current era
2. Temporary status from death until a later status transition occurs
3. Eschatological status – this may be the same as the temporary status
4. Eschatological resurrection
5. Maybe a final status and destination

There are many mistakes made in the conception of eschatology. One of those is to what end the idea of eschatology refers. I suggest that an obvious missed item is that of a final status and destination. That last entry should point to a clear restoration of the the earth and garden of Eden existence of saints. Per chance, a different destination could be planned for the saints that from this simple idea, but it seems illogical to miss some preservation of the earth. The fall appears to require restoration of both the earth and the people.

A book I have been reading clarifies that Christians do not end up in heaven. I might add sort of an interim stay in Paradise with some equivalence to our idea of heaven, but the book is generally right. The other emphasis is on the restoration of the earth which is treated as holistic eschatology,but the case was not made well as to how that fits in.

One aspect missed regarding the New Jerusalem involves the visiting of kings and the light to nations appears. Of course this requires kings and nations to exist. I'm not sure how that fits into various eschatological views, but it tends to say there are nations and kings after the New Jerusalem appears and other people disappeared, and this, per most perspectives, would happen after the judgments of Revelation 20.

A goal in the analysis of Eschatology is to consider how all the pieces fit together. I'm curious what people see of Christian participation in the 5 areas listed above.

Hey, Mike. I see no Scripture posted for any specific subject. Also, imo, we should discuss one specific topic at a time to avoid confusion. What do you think?

s e l a h

 

[mikesw]

Hey, Mike. I see no Scripture posted for any specific subject. Also, imo, we should discuss one specific topic at a time to avoid confusion. What do you think?

s e l a h

I can see how it is confusing how these ideas relate to the five possible stages or destinies of Christians. One concept is that items 2 and 3 refer to soul sleep or can be heaven/paradise existence. (I do think the author J. Richard Middleton is not fully accurate in rejecting some point where Christians might be said to be in heaven -- even if this heaven concept is used in a temporary but vague sense. Maybe the point about New Jerusalem introduces a point of resurrected Christians along with nations still existing.

The concept of resurrection to the earth that has been restored to paradise seems to me to be a viable but understated concept in scripture (or absent from scripture?).

Hopefully that clarifies the focus of the thread. This is not a specific scripture but is more of the question how Christians perceive the broader picture.

 

[Dizerner]

Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

The Biblical model.

 

[mikesw]

Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

The Biblical model.

Thanks for that point. Sorry you had to repost that after I created a repeated thread with a different name.

 

[Selah]

Gee, I’m sorry, but I still don’t understand the focus of this discussion. Are we discussing the timing of the end? … or what happens when we die? Like I said, “Gee.” .…because I can tell that this could be an interesting thread. Go for it, Mike; I’ll just read along.

 

[mikesw]

Gee, I’m sorry, but I still don’t understand the focus of this discussion. Are we discussing the timing of the end? … or what happens when we die? Like I said, “Gee.” .…because I can tell that this could be an interesting thread. Go for it, Mike; I’ll just read along.

Item 2 can cover what happens when a Christian dies -- what seems to be the state of one's soul? Then item 4 can be like Rev 20:4-6.
The question arose as I was reading Middleton's A New Heaven and a New Earth. I think my post came out of the confusion of how he was interpreting a concept of eschatology. He sort of jumps to Rev 21 without addressing any activity before that. The unaddressed question is his concept of this Rev 20:4-6 resurrection preceding the new heaven and new earth. Another one I just thought of is that he does not say what a Christian encounters upon death; he only says that heaven is not described as a destination, especially not a final one.

 

[Selah]

Regarding Item 2

2 Cor. 5:7-8
(For we walk by faith, not by sight [8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Well, I’ll start with one or two basic facts. When we die, we are separated from our flesh body and our spiritual body instantly returns to God; thus absent from the flesh body, we go to be present with Him.

Does our soul sleep in the ground? No.

 

[mikesw]

Regarding Item 2


Well, I’ll start with one or two basic facts. When we die, we are separated from our flesh body and our spiritual body instantly returns to God; thus absent from the flesh body, we go to be present with Him.

Does our soul sleep in the ground? No.

Whew. I would be curious if people soul sleep above the ground. Just being silly here.

I sometimes ask questions that I think will inspire deeper thinking, but these can just yield blank stares. Anyhow. I'll see if people conceive of different phases or not.

 

[Dizerner]

I would see 3 "phases."

Pre-Cross hell in a divided Sheol and Paradise.
Post-Cross hell with Paradise being raised to heaven as the saints resurrect and Christ leads captives in a train.

Intermission: Final judgment, one for Christians, one for unbelievers.

Post-Intermission: brand new creation, permanent hell/heaven division.


No weird purgatories, soul sleeps, or earthly kingdoms.

 

[civic]

I would see 3 "phases."

Pre-Cross hell in a divided Sheol and Paradise.
Post-Cross hell with Paradise being raised to heaven as the saints resurrect and Christ leads captives in a train.

Intermission: Final judgment, one for Christians, one for unbelievers.

Post-Intermission: brand new creation, permanent hell/heaven division.


No weird purgatories, soul sleeps, or earthly kingdoms.

You do not think there will be a literal millennium and earthly kingdom, that Christ will not rule on a literal throne in Jerusalem ?

 

[mikesw]

You do not think there will be a literal millennium and earthly kingdom, that Christ will not rule on a literal throne in Jerusalem ?

I know it is weird for me to do this, but I just want to see how people answer what seems to be several stages. Your question does suggest I could have asked this a bit differently. Anyhow, I'm just sharing my preference -- until the thread goes totally off topic on to how many angels... nevermind.

 

[civic]

I know it is weird for me to do this, but I just want to see how people answer what seems to be several stages. Your question does suggest I could have asked this a bit differently. Anyhow, I'm just sharing my preference -- until the thread goes totally off topic on to how many angels... nevermind.

It’s funny to see how people takes things figuratively and literally and transpose them to fit their theological system.

 

[mikesw]

It’s funny to see how people takes things figuratively and literally and transpose them to fit their theological system.

I'm not evaluating systems in this thread, but the basic function of reason is to take a new fact and fit it into they system of thought someone already has. However, once in awhile, a new fact causes a big explosion and changes the system of thought.

 

[Selah]

Here is something very interesting to ponder (selah) …

The book of Revelation is amazingly revealing! Why? …because it is unsealed, unlike the book of Daniel, where Daniel was instructed to seal up the words that he wrote until the time of the end, when the wise would understand. So again, in the book of Revelation, John was instructed by one of the seven angels not to seal the sayings and prophecies of this book, indicating that the time is at hand. See? Here it is:
Revelation 22:10 (NKJV) And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Now notice the contrast in the book of Daniel. Ready?
Daniel 12:4 (NKJV) “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

 

[mikesw]

Here is something very interesting to ponder (selah) …

The book of Revelation is amazingly revealing! Why? …because it is unsealed, unlike the book of Daniel, where Daniel was instructed to seal up the words that he wrote until the time of the end, when the wise would understand. So again, in the book of Revelation, John was instructed by one of the seven angels not to seal the sayings and prophecies of this book, indicating that the time is at hand. See? Here it is:
Revelation 22:10 (NKJV) And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

Now notice the contrast in the book of Daniel. Ready?
Daniel 12:4 (NKJV) “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Thanks. I thought there was a verse like Rev 22:10 but had not looked it up to add to my list of eschatological events.