FreeInChrist
Active Member
Within predestination, either by Calvin or basic belief to those who would deny Calvin your "They have the natural ability to choose otherwise. The moral ability is where tge rub lies." is not viable. The reason is it has been decided for you. (note..... I am not referring to common decisions such as what color socks should be worn on a given day, but the decision of where you will be in eternity.
From Wikipedia: Predestination, according to Calvin, is the doctrine that God has eternally decreed the fate of every individual, choosing some for salvation and others for damnation. This concept is rooted in God's sovereignty and is often referred to as "double predestination."
predestination /prē-dĕs″tə-nā′shən/
noun
- The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.
- The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.
- The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.
That is incorrect. It is incorrect because you do not understand what foreknowledge is.
Got? says...Foreknowledge is knowing things or events before they exist or happen. In Greek, the term for “foreknowledge” is prognosis, which expresses the idea of knowing reality before it is real and events before they occur. In Christian theology, foreknowledge refers to the all-knowing, omniscient nature of God whereby He knows reality before it is real, all things and events before they happen, and all people before they exist.
Bible Hub says... Foreknowledge and God's Omniscience Foreknowledge is a facet of God's omniscience-His total knowledge of all things. Scripture consistently presents God as existing outside the confines of time, making the future as real and knowable to Him as the past and present.
What is Foreknowledge? Definition and Bible Meaning
Foreknowledge means knowing something is going to happen before it actually does. God's foreknowledge relates to His omnipresence outside of time and space.
www.christianity.com
What is Foreknowledge? Definition and Bible Meaning
Apr 8, 2024Foreknowledge is a term that often sparks intrigue and curiosity among theologians, philosophers, and the spiritually inclined. At its core, foreknowledge refers to the concept of knowing something before it happens.Now I will stop with the links because you want to know what I say... yet you do not understand what I say.... so I posted these 3 concise explanations from 3 different sources that say it very understandable.
ONE QUESTION TO BE ASKED THAT YOU HAVE NOT BROACHED IS..... IS FOREKNOWLEDGE DIFFERENT THAN PREDESTINATION?
IOW, it is a given that if predestination is true, that God had the foreknowledge about the destination of people because He caused it and they could not vary from His specific decree. And He simply knew before He breathed into Adam life.
OR IS FOREKNOWLEDGE A STAND ALONE ATTRIBUTE OF GOD WHERE, WITHIN THE GRAND SCHEME OF DESIGN FROM CREATION UNTIL THE END DAY FINALLY ARRIVES, GOD KNOWS ALL THINGS THAT WILL FREELY OCCUR WITHOUT BEING THE CAUSE OF THEM?
Because these are not the same thing, and combining them creates a serious problem.
If foreknowledge equals causation, then calling it “knowledge” is misleading. It would mean God doesn’t foreknow choices ...He authors them. And if He authors them, then those choices are not truly human choices at all, but enacted outcomes of His decree.
At that point, saying a person can “change their mind” becomes meaningless, because no one can change what has already been unchangeably determined.
So the issue is simple and unavoidable:
Does God know what will happen because He determined it, or does He know what will happen because He is omniscient?
You can’t consistently hold both without redefining either “knowledge” or “choice.”
If knowledge is truly knowledge, then it does not force the outcome... it reflects it before it happens.
And if choices are real, then they cannot be exhaustively predetermined.
So which is it?
SMH.
Judas is actually a perfect example of the difference I’m pointing out.
He was not forced, he acted according to his own desires, motives, and choices. Scripture consistently presents Judas as responsible because what he did, he wanted to do.
At the same time, God had foreknowledge that Judas would do this and incorporated it into His redemptive plan.
But foreknowledge is not the same as coercion. Knowing an outcome ahead of time does not mean you caused the person to choose it.
If Judas was forced, then he is not morally responsible.
But if he is morally responsible, as Scripture clearly holds him to be, then his actions were not coerced by God.
So the real issue is this:
Was Judas acting out of his own will, or was he merely carrying out a script he had no ability to deviate from?
If the latter, then holding him accountable would be unjust.
If the former, then foreknowledge stands without requiring predestination.
“You simply can not call it both ‘forced’ and ‘sin’ at the same time as those categories cancel each other out.”
Who said an alternative must be possible? Scripture does, repeatedly. Commands, warnings, invitations, and judgments all assume that a different response was genuinely available. Otherwise, they are not meaningful, only performative.
If no alternative is possible, then what you are describing is not choice in any meaningful sense it is inevitability. And if it is inevitability, then responsibility becomes difficult to justify, because the outcome could not have been otherwise.
Judas, like every person, acted מתוך his own desires and intentions. That is why he is held accountable. Not because he fulfilled a script he could not deviate from, but because he willingly did what he did.
God’s foreknowledge does not require that He determined Judas’ betrayal, it means He knew it would occur and wove it into His redemptive plan without violating Judas’ will.
Now tell me...................................! Please,
Why do you insist on complicating what is actually presented simply in the Heavenly Father’s plan from eternity past?
God knows all things completely and perfectly.
Man is responsible for his own response.
Those two truths are consistently held together in Scripture without requiring us to redefine knowledge as causation or choice as inevitability.
Just because we cannot fully comprehend how God knows does not give us license to redefine what He has revealed.
Learn this truth. Mystery does not invalidate truth, but forcing a system onto the text that removes real responsibility creates more problems than it solves.
