Rockson
Well-known member
So what's possible assuming mankind has a fallen nature. Can beings have a fallen nature and yet not of the type Calvinists would put forth......Total Depravity? Then people get arguing about what exactly is TOTAL.
I've thought about this often and believe a certain type of analogy might be helpful. I have to borrow something from entertainment culture to give an analogy though and forgive me for doing so as it might seem kind of Treky from Star Trek. I don't watch the show so don't think I'm getting nutty but maybe this can help.
In Star Trek you have different species. Think of the Klingons. What are they? They're a species which have a very aggressive nature. Think of Worf in the Next Generation shows. So the Klingons (in fiction) learned to work along with humans even serving together on the same Star Ships.....as part of the Federation. But what of their nature? Animal like? Aggressive? Yes....but totally and absolutely corrupt? No.
They still have a capacity to do many good things. So man before the fall did not have a nature of wrath. When mankind fell their spirits degenerated and their nature became fallen. Or to put it this way mankind now had a nature like the Klingons. God saw beyond just the surface problem of men. Merely seeking to reform ones character could never really deal with the roots of man's real problem. Nature became the real true problem for man.....not necessarily his actions.
It's not what men do but it's all about what men are that make them a sinner. God knew right from the Garden after the Fall that men's spirits would need to be born again.....a recreation would have to take place but this wouldn't be made available for a few thousand years. There was a promissory note however that this would ultimately be made available We see the inklings of it mentioned and brought forth in Ezekiel 36:24,28,
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Ezekiel 36:24-28
God called the foreign nature of man.....a stony heart but the prophecy spoke of a heart of flesh (the life, love and nature of God) In Jn 3 Jesus set the record straight for one Nicodemus a religious priest who was told of his real problem....He needed to be born again! How could something like this be? He was morally considered a good man why would something more be needed? Jesus told him a whole new creation needs to take place.
Jesus also stated unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you won't enter the Kingdom of God!! That wasn't meant to be a put down of the religious leaders at that point. He was merely making clear mankind individually needs a new heart and a new nature! OK for thousands of years men didn't have this. From the Fall until the resurrection of Christ men had to do their best to be a good
person.....they were commanded to repent from their sin, they were given the law but it was a given man would fall short of being able to keep it......but they still had to try their best and many did. The priesthood was established and the shedding of the blood of animals was provided for the covering for sin.......when they died (before the resurrection of Christ) the righteous saints went to the place of bliss...Abraham's bosom..... but it wasn't the ultimate place of victory.....Heaven.
So we see in Eph 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." It states we once had the nature of wrath......but now we are partakers of the divine nature, God's nature, God's love within us. 2 Pt 1:4 So what happens when one is Born Again? They become a new creature in Christ Jesus 2 Cor 5:17 ....they're not the same creature they once were. (More Could Be Said)
I've thought about this often and believe a certain type of analogy might be helpful. I have to borrow something from entertainment culture to give an analogy though and forgive me for doing so as it might seem kind of Treky from Star Trek. I don't watch the show so don't think I'm getting nutty but maybe this can help.
In Star Trek you have different species. Think of the Klingons. What are they? They're a species which have a very aggressive nature. Think of Worf in the Next Generation shows. So the Klingons (in fiction) learned to work along with humans even serving together on the same Star Ships.....as part of the Federation. But what of their nature? Animal like? Aggressive? Yes....but totally and absolutely corrupt? No.
They still have a capacity to do many good things. So man before the fall did not have a nature of wrath. When mankind fell their spirits degenerated and their nature became fallen. Or to put it this way mankind now had a nature like the Klingons. God saw beyond just the surface problem of men. Merely seeking to reform ones character could never really deal with the roots of man's real problem. Nature became the real true problem for man.....not necessarily his actions.
It's not what men do but it's all about what men are that make them a sinner. God knew right from the Garden after the Fall that men's spirits would need to be born again.....a recreation would have to take place but this wouldn't be made available for a few thousand years. There was a promissory note however that this would ultimately be made available We see the inklings of it mentioned and brought forth in Ezekiel 36:24,28,
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Ezekiel 36:24-28
God called the foreign nature of man.....a stony heart but the prophecy spoke of a heart of flesh (the life, love and nature of God) In Jn 3 Jesus set the record straight for one Nicodemus a religious priest who was told of his real problem....He needed to be born again! How could something like this be? He was morally considered a good man why would something more be needed? Jesus told him a whole new creation needs to take place.
Jesus also stated unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees you won't enter the Kingdom of God!! That wasn't meant to be a put down of the religious leaders at that point. He was merely making clear mankind individually needs a new heart and a new nature! OK for thousands of years men didn't have this. From the Fall until the resurrection of Christ men had to do their best to be a good
person.....they were commanded to repent from their sin, they were given the law but it was a given man would fall short of being able to keep it......but they still had to try their best and many did. The priesthood was established and the shedding of the blood of animals was provided for the covering for sin.......when they died (before the resurrection of Christ) the righteous saints went to the place of bliss...Abraham's bosom..... but it wasn't the ultimate place of victory.....Heaven.
So we see in Eph 2:3 "Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." It states we once had the nature of wrath......but now we are partakers of the divine nature, God's nature, God's love within us. 2 Pt 1:4 So what happens when one is Born Again? They become a new creature in Christ Jesus 2 Cor 5:17 ....they're not the same creature they once were. (More Could Be Said)
