Are we told to worship Jesus or are we told to worship God?

[Johann]

I don't think most men set out to purposely distort words. It seems, in my experience, that men are just trying to find ways to justify themselves. To justify their teaching or philosophy. To save face or defend themselves when their religious philosophy is challenged. It's a form of fleshy anger really, to be offended when being challenged, then to try and deflect or distract away from the questionable teaching for the purpose of preserving or protecting a specific view or philosophy.

Jesus explains to me why this is in John 3. " And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

I believe Jesus speaks to all men here. It's one of the curses of Sin, in my view. It seems there are two kinds of men who love darkness.

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

This man doesn't want to hear Scriptures, or the Truth of God (Light) which might expose a falsehood or darkness they have. Like pride, manmade religious traditions, popular religious doctrines of men, etc. So they work to preserve their own traditions and they don't listen to Scriptures which might bring question to the practices. So they don't come to the Light "Lest his deeds" might be corrected, which would be humiliating in most cases, and humiliation is avoided at all costs by the fleshy man.

The other type of man who loves darkness, are those who are interested in God's Truth, regardless of the personal cost. These men come to the Light for the very purpose of exposing darkness that they know exists, exposing doctrines and traditions of men they know they have been influenced by, even though they might not see them.

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God".

This man's pride is exposed, he is often humiliated, and he is broken, as it is written. But what remains are deeds which are wrought in God and not man. This is precious to God, in my understanding.

It is truly a fascinating study, and I did the study using myself as the example of the man Jesus speaks about.

Civic doesn't set out to misrepresent anyone. But when challenged, goes into the natural self-defense mode to preserve whatever he says, despite scriptures which might bring question to his words. I have been guilty of the same thing, and still am when I don't stay in the Light.

Again, Jesus' declaration that men love darkness, is a fascinating study.

I believe you are correct brother and maybe I should do a study on WHY men love darkness rather than the Light, as I read your post A Ritz of Scripture references immediately comes to mind.

An aside, I have not yet arrived and you are correct, we are to deny self, the ego eimi, take up our cross and keep on following our Master, Jesus Christ, sealed and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Still a work in progress and love reading Pilgrims Progress now and then, as a reminder.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[Studyman]

I believe you are correct brother and maybe I should do a study on WHY men love darkness rather than the Light, as I read your post A Ritz of Scripture references immediately comes to mind.

An aside, I have not yet arrived and you are correct, we are to deny self, the ego eimi, take up our cross and keep on following our Master, Jesus Christ, sealed and indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

Still a work in progress and love reading Pilgrims Progress now and then, as a reminder.

Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

I have a belief as to "Why" men love darkness, it is my belief, so you should certainly do the study as I don't want anyone following me.

In Duet. 28, there are promises of curses from God to the man who has lived in Sin. (All of us) Because I believe all that is written, I think it goes all the way back to Adam.

Gen. 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, "Because" thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it "all the days of thy life"; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, "till thou return unto the ground"; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

In Deut. 28, God lays these curses out. I think the natural desire to preserve our own darkness is part of this curse.

Recently on a sabbath gathering in my yard, a bother asked the question, "How do you destroy a thought"? And it was determined that we can't destroy a thought. We can dwell on it, act on it, rule over it, discern it. But we can't destroy it. Once the thought exists, it is always there in this life. I think this is part of the cross we all bear, as we "Press towards the Prize of the High Calling of God", which was in Christ Jesus.


Food for thought.

You take care brother. Thanks for your encouraging words

 

[MatthewG]

Recently on a sabbath gathering in my yard, a bother asked the question, "How do you destroy a thought"? And it was determined that we can't destroy a thought. We can dwell on it, act on it, rule over it, discern it. But we can't destroy it. Once the thought exists, it is always there in this life. I think this is part of the cross we all bear, as we "Press towards the Prize of the High Calling of God", which was in Christ Jesus.


Food for thought.

You take care brother. Thanks for your encouraging words

Hey, Studyman reading you and johanns comments. This one kind of stood out, for a moment I can “think of punching a person in the face” or hope “that their car, ends up breaking down on them”; even thoughts come sometimes though our lives. While these thoughts do come to mind; they do not last forevermore. As you said you can react to it, or respond in action from the thought such as a “jealous or greedy person decides to murder their own family for insurance.” I as a young man had thoughts of “go ahead and murder your mother with the use of a knife,” however the threat of jail an confinement and knowing that such evil ways lead to hell as a young man. Surely it was by the “Spirit of God” which kept me from harming her even though I had heard about God and Jesus but never knew them like today.

I don’t have thoughts of murdering my mother anymore cause it done came and went: from the Bible it says a person who hates another brother or sister (could just say neighbor.) It’s the exact same as murder which taking of life; and not supportive or giving of life which Yeshua brings for us; renewing the mind from the old ways of life, into newness of life. One of my favorite sections may be Colossians, when Paul writes.

“You were raised from death with Christ. So live for what is in heaven, where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God. Think only about what is up there, not what is here on earth.

Your old self has died, and your new life is kept with Christ in God. Yes, Christ is now your life, and when he comes again, you will share in his glory.

So put everything evil out of your life: sexual sin, doing anything immoral, letting sinful thoughts control you, and wanting things that are wrong. And don’t keep wanting more and more for yourself, which is the same as worshiping a false god. God will show his anger against those who don’t obey him, because they do these evil things. You also did these things in the past, when you lived like them.

But now put these things out of your life: anger, losing your temper, doing or saying things to hurt others, and saying shameful things. Don’t lie to each other. You have taken off those old clothes—the person you once were and the bad things you did then.

Now you are wearing a new life, a life that is new every day. You are growing in your understanding of the one who made you.

You are becoming more and more like him. In this new life it doesn’t matter if you are a Greek or a Jew, circumcised or not.

It doesn’t matter if you speak a different language or even if you are a Scythian. It doesn’t matter if you are a slave or free. Christ is all that matters, and he is in all of you.

God has chosen you and made you his holy people. He loves you. So your new life should be like this: Show mercy to others. Be kind, humble, gentle, and patient.

Don’t be angry with each other, but forgive each other. If you feel someone has wronged you, forgive them.

Forgive others because the Lord forgave you. Together with these things, the most important part of your new life is to love each other. Love is what holds everything together in perfect unity.

Let the peace that Christ gives control your thinking. It is for peace that you were chosen to be together in one body.

And always be thankful. Let the teaching of Christ live inside you richly. Use all wisdom to teach and counsel each other. Sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God. Everything you say and everything you do should be done for Jesus your Lord. And in all you do, give thanks to God the Father through Jesus.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭17‬ ‭ERV‬‬

 

[MatthewG]

Also reminded of what Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter here, concerning thoughts.

“Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you: but I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh.

For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (for the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds) casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭10‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭KJV

 

[Candle]

Some people believe we are to worship Jesus, some people believe we are to worship God? Does the bible tell us anything about which one should be worshipped? What are your reasons you either worship Jesus or worship God, and is there any biblical reasonings to look at?

It would depend on what definition you put on worship, to you what is the highest form of worship you could do?

 

[MatthewG]

It would depend on what definition you put on worship, to you what is the highest form of worship you could do?

You know, I’ll tell you this much.

In the Old Testament; the God which Jesus worshiped in spirit and truth was his Father; Yahweh.

I actually opened my Bible today and found this to be intriguing;

Yeshua shared what he was taught by his Father to say; saying

“that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5‬:‭23‬-‭25‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Many people confuse worship - in regards to how it was show physically; people would bow; and it would be showing them as higher than one self. Yeshua shares “that there will be those which worship God in spirit and in truth.” That would be, worshipping by spiritual means; in seeing Yahweh has higher than oneself; seeing as Yeshua to be our King whom brings us into his kingdom which we are transferred from darkness into this light, by Yahweh in seeking to do his will; just as Jesus had done. Honoring his Father, just as they honor the Son. There is nothing wrong in doing such a thing; but when it comes to worshipping in spirit and in truth; one must decide for themselves, asking their Father to help them in Yeshuas name, and faithfully seeking to be used by the Holy Spirit within them.

“He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬-‭14‬ ‭ESV‬‬


“And looking about at those who sat around him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3‬:‭34‬-‭35‬ ‭ESV‬‬


“Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4‬:‭21‬-‭26‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Jesus also shared a personal testimony from Yahweh which he was taught and explained;

““If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me. “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14‬:‭15‬-‭28‬ ‭ESV

 

[civic]

Some people believe we are to worship Jesus, some people believe we are to worship God? Does the bible tell us anything about which one should be worshipped? What are your reasons you either worship Jesus or worship God, and is there any biblical reasonings to look at?

1-We see in Matthew 2:11 the Magi worships Jesus
2-We see in Matthew 8:2 that a leper worships Jesus
3-We see in Matthew 9:18 Jairus worships Jesus
4-We see in Matthew 15:25 that a woman worships Jesus
5-We see in Matthew 14:33 the disciples worship Jesus
6-We see in John 9:38 that a blind man worships Jesus
7-We see in Matthew 28:9 the women worship Jesus
8-We see in Matthew 28:17 all the disciples worship Jesus
9-We see in Revelation 4 all creation worships Jesus.
10-We see in Revelation 5 all creation worships Jesus

Was the Son worshiped? Or was He simply given obeisance as so many unitarians contend?

Matt 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

The verb used in the above text is προσεκύνησαν (prosekunesan) from προσκυνέω (proskuneo), rendered worshiped.

There are 65 verses that contain the word. I would encourage you to go here and examine each use. Lets take a look at few occurrences to see if in fact the NT authors really meant for the religious worship of the Son of God.

John 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship

Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Matt 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

Acts 7:43 You took up the tent of Moloch, and the star of your god Rephan, the images that you made to worship; and I will send you into exile beyond Babylon

Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,

Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

Rev 19:4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who was seated on the throne, saying, “Amen. Hallelujah!”

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Is there any question that προσεκύνησαν means actual worship; the same kind of which belongs only to YHWH:

Mat 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Be gone, Satan! For it is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’”

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

No Jew would ever worship anyone or anything except God. You shall have no other gods- worship God alone.

And we know the disciples worshiped Jesus and He allowed their worship. And many others in the gospel accounts worshiped Jesus.

This First Commandment sets the tone for the first four commandments, which can be summarized as, “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength” (Deuteronomy 6:5). Jesus Christ called this summation the great commandment (Matthew 22:37-38).

And we know Jesus commanded His disciples love Him by forsaking everything to follow Him, total allegiance to Him and that they would be persecuted and die for Him. Only God can make such demands of anyone. Otherwise it’s idolatry.

And Jesus accepts all the same worship, glory, praise, honor, prayer that the Father receives from the Apostles.

And His Apostles called Him God and worshipped Him as God.

I will throw this one in for free at no charge.

Thomas never called the Father his God- But he called Jesus his Lord and his God.

And Jesus accepted being called his God( THEOS, YHWH) and allowed Thomas to worship Him. thus breaking the first commandment for any Jew.

But wait Thomas didn't break the 1st commandment because Jesus was His God !!!!!!!!

case closed.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

Like I said @civic if you believe you need to worship Jesus by all means do so. I honor the father and the son. Whether you respect my own belief or not is up to you. You are more than welcome to do what ya want. You’re gonna do that anyways. I never seen him say we need to worship him… so that’s my own perspective.

Thanks!

 

[MatthewG]

I believe we are to worship, just as Jesus told us to; to seek and worship his Father in spirit and truth. If you wanna run around and try to take that away from what Jesus said; I believe personally we are off a little bit but that is okay if someone doesn’t wanna to do so. I’m not anyone’s judge, just sharing.

I’m glad i don’t have to believe what other people say; sometimes they even call you not a Christian if you don’t follow after them and their ways.

Like double u, to the t, over hell is that all about?

 

[MatthewG]

Some people just simple believe and they take things a certain way? And hey…

Guess what:…

Your faith you hold is not a group collective!

Unless you believe you are part of that bride and Jesus is still coming back; then yes it is.

Today it’s individual and it’s Yahweh who is Father… what you do with your relationship is between you and him.

Your relationship is not the relationship of others with God; we all walk individual and support and encourage that God does love us and we can have relationship with him through Yeshua.

 

[MatthewG]

“Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭16‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Hebrews 4:1-16 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard | English Standard Version 2016 (E

Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard

bible.com

 

[civic]

It would depend on what definition you put on worship, to you what is the highest form of worship you could do?

That’s the million dollar question

 

[Behold]

John 14:1 , Jesus says to believe in God and in HIm also.

So, this is the typical equivalency that Jesus always places, between Himself and God.

such as.. "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father"

"I and my Father are one"..

We also read that "God hath raised Jesus from the Dead", and Jesus Himself says... "I have the power to raise up myself"... (From the Dead).

The way to understand this regarding worship and praise, and prayer, is that when you are doing it to or for One of Them, you are in fact doing it to both of Them.

 

[civic]

John 14:1 , Jesus says to believe in God and in HIm also.

So, this is the typical equivalency that Jesus always places, between Himself and God.

such as.. "If you've seen Me, you've seen the Father"

"I and my Father are one"..

We also read that "God hath raised Jesus from the Dead", and Jesus Himself says... "I have the power to raise up myself"... (From the Dead).

The way to understand this regarding worship and praise, and prayer, is that when you are doing it to or for One of Them, you are in fact doing it to both of Them.

Ditto you cannot have One without the Other

 

[civic]

Like I said @civic if you believe you need to worship Jesus by all means do so. I honor the father and the son. Whether you respect my own belief or not is up to you. You are more than welcome to do what ya want. You’re gonna do that anyways. I never seen him say we need to worship him… so that’s my own perspective.

Thanks!

Deny yourself , take up your cross and follow Me.
Obey My commands
I give eternal life
My sheep follow Me
Bear fruit and prove you are My disciples
My words are spirit and life
I am the way, truth and life
In Him was life
I came to seek and save the lost
Savior of the world

You see above salvation and faith is in Him alone to be save. There is no other name by which men are saved.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Keiw1]

Deny yourself , take up your cross and follow Me.
Obey My commands
I give eternal life
My sheep follow Me
Bear fruit and prove you are My disciples
My words are spirit and life
I am the way, truth and life
In Him was life
I came to seek and save the lost
Savior of the world

You see above salvation and faith is in Him alone to be save. There is no other name by which men are saved.

hope this helps !!!

You are mistaken, because your translations are altered.
Joel 2:21-22--Those who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
Quoted 2 x in NT at Acts 2:21, and Heb 10:13--But since you have LORD at Joel,( Gods name removed by satans will to mislead and replaced with titles) you have Lord at both NT spots=to mislead one into thinking the name Jesus is the name to be called on. Only the false religions claiming to be Christian rely on the altered translations and reject Gods version with his name where he wants it.

 

[Fred]

You are mistaken, because your translations are altered.
Joel 2:21-22--Those who call on the name of Jehovah will be saved.
Quoted 2 x in NT at Acts 2:21, and Heb 10:13

Not Hebrews 10:13, but Romans 10:13.

 

[Fred]

Romans 10:9-13

I thought you may be interested in the following, Civic.

Quite recently I was studying into more detail the above passages in Romans, and I believe the Lord showed me something which I was both surprised and thankful to see.


Romans 10:11, 13
11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

Psalm 31:16-17 (in the LXX it is Psalm 30:17-18)
16 Make Thy face to shine upon thy slave: save me for Thy mercies' sake.
17 Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon Thee.

(not be) ashamed (kataischynō)
call(ed) upon (epikaleō)
Lord (kyrios)
save(d) (sōzō)

Romans 10:11 is from Isaiah 28:16 and Romans 10:13 is from Joel 2:32. Both passages in Romans are in reference to Jesus.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/prayer.114/#post-4761

Notice the English words (see above) that are used in both sections of Scripture are from the same Greek words as well. That Paul would use what was said of YHWH from these two passages from the Book of Psalms in reference to Christ in two passages from the Book of Romans is a further indication of Paul's high Christology -> Jesus is YHWH.

 

[civic]

I thought you may be interested in the following, Civic.

Quite recently I was studying into more detail the above passages in Romans, and I believe the Lord showed me something which I was both surprised and thankful to see.


Romans 10:11, 13
11 For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth in Him shall not be ashamed.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

Psalm 31:16-17 (in the LXX it is Psalm 30:17-18)
16 Make Thy face to shine upon thy slave: save me for Thy mercies' sake.
17 Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for I have called upon Thee.

(not be) ashamed (kataischynō)
call(ed) upon (epikaleō)
Lord (kyrios)
save(d) (sōzō)

Romans 10:11 is from Isaiah 28:16 and Romans 10:13 is from Joel 2:32, but notice the English words (see above) that are used in both sections of Scripture are from the same Greek words as well. That Paul would use what was said of YHWH from these two passages from the Book of Psalms in reference to Christ in two passages from the Book of Romans is a further indication of Paul's high Christology -> Jesus is YHWH.

Amen good study brother affirming the Deity of our Lord as YHWH of the OT.