Wheat (vessels for glory) and tares (vessels for destruction)

[The Rogue Tomato]

There is a great parallel between Mathew 13 and Romans 9

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field, 25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away, 26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel. 27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel? 28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up? 29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat, 30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us -- 24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations

In both cases God allows the tares to grow with the wheat (longsuffering the vessels of wrath), knowing that in the end the tares are fitted for destruction and the wheat for glory.

 

[civic]

The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction are the chosen/ elect Jews/ Israel .

Next fallacy

 

[TomL]

There is a great parallel between Mathew 13 and Romans 9

24 Another simile he set before them, saying: `The reign of the heavens was likened to a man sowing good seed in his field, 25 and, while men are sleeping, his enemy came and sowed darnel in the midst of the wheat, and went away, 26 and when the herb sprang up, and yielded fruit, then appeared also the darnel. 27 `And the servants of the householder, having come near, said to him, Sir, good seed didst thou not sow in thy field? whence then hath it the darnel? 28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, [that] having gone away we may gather it up? 29 `And he said, No, lest -- gathering up the darnel -- ye root up with it the wheat, 30 suffer both to grow together till the harvest, and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the darnel, and bind it in bundles, to burn it, and the wheat gather up into my storehouse.'

22 And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us -- 24 not only out of Jews, but also out of nations

In both cases God allows the tares to grow with the wheat (longsuffering the vessels of wrath), knowing that in the end the tares are fitted for destruction and the wheat for glory.

fitted not determined and not without involvement

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
regarding
Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God choosing - God willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson

fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction. vine’s

 

[TomL]

The vessels of wrath fitted for destruction are the chosen/ elect Jews/ Israel .

Next fallacy

Who fitted themselves

Romans 10:19–21 (KJV 1900) — 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Fortunately not all fell into that category

 

[Presby02]

fitted not determined and not without involvement

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
regarding
Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God choosing - God willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson

fitted to destruction - men persistent in evil. it is in the middle voice indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for destruction.

It does not say they fitted themselves.

 

[TomL]

It does not say they fitted themselves.

It does if you read

fitted not determined and not without involvement

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
regarding
Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



God choosing - God willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

3. katartizo (καταρτίζω, 2675), “to make fit, to equip, prepare” (kata, “down,” artos, “a joint”), is rendered “fitted” in Rom. 9:22, of vessels of wrath; here the middle voice signifies that those referred to “fitted” themselves for destruction (as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh, the self-hardening of whose heart is accurately presented in the RV in the first part of the series of incidents in the Exodus narrative, which records Pharaoh’s doings; only after repeated and persistent obstinacy on his part is it recorded that God hardened his heart.)

W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 241–242.

 

[Presby02]

It does if you read

fitted not determined and not without involvement

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (KJV 1900) — 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.
regarding
Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:



God choosing - God willing concessive use of the participle, although willing, not causal that they are responsible may be seen 1Th 2:15 A.T Robertson

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

3. katartizo (καταρτίζω, 2675), “to make fit, to equip, prepare” (kata, “down,” artos, “a joint”), is rendered “fitted” in Rom. 9:22, of vessels of wrath; here the middle voice signifies that those referred to “fitted” themselves for destruction (as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh, the self-hardening of whose heart is accurately presented in the RV in the first part of the series of incidents in the Exodus narrative, which records Pharaoh’s doings; only after repeated and persistent obstinacy on his part is it recorded that God hardened his heart.)

W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger, and William White Jr., Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 241–242.

It says no such thing in Romans 9.

 

[TomL]

It says no such thing in Romans 9.

Nothing but bald denial

Why longsuffering if God was determining their acts

 

[civic]

Who fitted themselves

Romans 10:19–21 (KJV 1900) — 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

1 Thessalonians 2:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: 15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Fortunately not all fell into that category

Exactly down goes the calvinist election/chosen/predestination/ doctrines down the drain- call roto rooter

 

[TomL]

Exactly down goes the calvinist election/chosen/predestination/ doctrines down the drain- call roto rooter

So many verses and factors must be ignored to hold that position