The Septuagint Factor

Johann

Johann

Well-known member
The Septuagint Factor
A similar situation exists in relation to the Septuagint. First of all let me define the word “Septuagint.” The Septuagint is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, it is a translation made by the Jewish community somewhere between the third and first centuries BC. As a result, this Greek version of the Old Testament existed at the beginning of the first century AD.

In other words, this Greek version of the Bible was made by the Jewish community long before Jesus or the Church came on the scene. The Septuagint found widespread use in the Greek speaking Jewish community before Jesus or the Church came on the scene. As a result, the writers of the New Testament quoted from the Septuagint frequently. The importance of all this lies in the translation technique that the Jewish scholars utilized when they produced the Septuagint.

Encyclopedia Judaica describes their translation technique as “targumic” in nature.[1] Its objective was essentially to teach and explain the Hebrew text. As a result we run into the occurrence of free translation again. The Septuagint does not always quote the Hebrew Bible in a word for word manner. When the New Testament quotes the Hebrew Bible it often is quoting from the Septuagint.

Anti-missionaries claim that the Church and the New Testament tamper with the text of the Hebrew Bible. Again, this is an invalid argument. The first-century Messianic Jews were simply quoting from a version of the Bible that was widespread in their community. They were simply quoting from a version of the Bible that was widely accepted in the Greek speaking Jewish community. There is no tampering with the text going on.

What is going on is Messianic Jews simply quoting a recognized Jewish translation. This brings us to the issue of reliability again. Can we trust the Septuagint? I will say the same thing I said in relation to the Targumim Factor. If we believe in divine inspiration, since the practice is found in the New Testament, the practice does not bother God. Since God oversaw the production of the New Testament then we can have confidence in the New Testament text.

God saw to it that the proper understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures was communicated through the pages of the New Testament. God was quite willing to use the Septuagint in this process. Therefore, slight differences in quotations should not bother us as well.

https://www.hadavar.org/critical-is...r-,The Septuagint Factor,-A similar situation

The anti-missionaries use this as an argument to discredit the New Testament. When they do that they are actually criticizing Jewish translators.
 
Johann said:
The Septuagint found widespread use in the Greek speaking Jewish community before Jesus or the Church came on the scene. As a result, the writers of the New Testament quoted from the Septuagint frequently.
Click to expand...
What actual evidence is there for these statements? That the Septuagint was in widespread use in Judea, particularly?
 
Both of those aren't actually "sources". The first doesn't make any claims about which texts were mainly read. The second article is a puff piece with no cited references. No, what actual evidence is there for the claims?
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
Both of those aren't actually "sources". The first doesn't make any claims about which texts were mainly read. The second article is a puff piece with no cited references. No, what actual evidence is there for the claims?
Click to expand...
The first one has references from the OT quoted in the NT from the Septuagint.
 
Most people have heard of Josephus, the Jewish historian. If they look into his works at all, they probably know he wrote his works in Greek. But what they very likely do not know, is that the Greek was a translation of his first version. He has some pretty interesting statements about languages in that area.

Jewish Wars (Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 1): "I have proposed to myself, for the sake of such as live under the government of the Romans, to translate those books into the Greek tongue, which I formerly composed in the language of our country, and sent to the Upper Barbarians. Joseph, the son of Matthias, by birth a Hebrew, a priest also, and one who at first fought against the Romans myself, and was forced to be present at what was done afterwards, [am the author of this work]."

Jewish Wars Book 1 Preface, Paragraph 2 - "I thought it therefore an absurd thing to see the truth falsified in affairs of such great consequence, and to take no notice of it; but to suffer those Greeks and Romans that were not in the wars to be ignorant of these things, and to read either flatteries or fictions, while the Parthians, and the Babylonians, and the remotest Arabians, and those of our nation beyond Euphrates, with the Adiabeni, by my means, knew accurately both whence the war begun, what miseries it brought upon us, and after what manner it ended."

All of these nations OUTSIDE of Judea were able to read Josephus' first version (ie. not in Greek). Their language was the same as what was in Judea during this time. The Greeks and Romans were ignorant of his works because they couldn't read them and so he had to translate them.

"I have also taken a great deal of pains to obtain the learning of the Greeks, and understand the elements of the Greek language, although I have so long accustomed myself to speak our own tongue, that I cannot pronounce Greek with sufficient exactness; for our nation does not encourage those that learn the languages of many nations, and so adorn their discourses with the smoothness of their periods;b ecause they look upon this sort of accomplishment as common, not only to all sorts of free-men, but to as many of the servants as please to learn them. But they give him the testimony of being a wise man who is fully acquainted with our laws, and is able to interpret their meaning; on which account, as there have been many who have done their endeavors with great patience to obtain this learning, there have yet hardly been so many as two or three that have succeeded therein, who were immediately well rewarded for their pains." - Antiquities of Jews XX, XI

Josephus says he went through a lot of effort to learn Greek. It was not a common thing. Some people do try but many do not succeed in it. He had a lot of difficulty in speaking it properly. He would have stuck out to any native Greek speaker.

Antiquities of Jews Book 1, Preface, Paragraph 2 - "Now I have undertaken the present work, as thinking it will appear to all the Greeks worthy of their study; for it will contain all our antiquities, and the constitution of our government, as interpreted out of the Hebrew Scriptures. And indeed I did formerly intend, when I wrote of the war, to explain who the Jews originally were, - what fortunes they had been subject to, - and by what legislature they had been instructed in piety, and the exercise of other virtues, - what wars also they had made in remote ages, till they were unwillingly engaged in this last with the Romans: but because this work would take up a great compass, I separated it into a set treatise by itself, with a beginning of its own, and its own conclusion; but in process of time, as usually happens to such as undertake great things, I grew weary and went on slowly, it being a large subject, and a difficult thing to translate our history into a foreign, and to us unaccustomed language."

Greek was a foreign language to the Jews. They were unaccustomed to it. It was NOT commonly spoken. The vast majority would NOT have used the Septuagint as their Scripture reading.
 
My understanding was the LXX was mainly used abroad, and for Gentile converts.

It was still well respected until Christians started using it's particular verses to defend Christ, then the Jews started suppressing or changing it.

The apostles probably used it because there were so many Gentile converts in the church, or they liked a particular phrasing.
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
Both of those aren't actually "sources". The first doesn't make any claims about which texts were mainly read. The second article is a puff piece with no cited references. No, what actual evidence is there for the claims?
Click to expand...
Let me know what you think of this article, thanks

christianpublishinghouse.co

What Language Did Jesus Christ, His Apostles, and Early Christians Speak? - Christian Publishing House Blog

Discover what languages Jesus and the early Christians used. Uncover historical insights that bring scripture to life. Read now!
christianpublishinghouse.co christianpublishinghouse.co
 
Johann said:
The first-century Messianic Jews were simply quoting from a version of the Bible that was widespread in their community. They were simply quoting from a version of the Bible that was widely accepted in the Greek speaking Jewish community. There is no tampering with the text going on.
Click to expand...
This is just not an accurate viewpoint. For example, if one compares the original LXX version of Daniel with the Masoretic text of Daniel, some of it is wildly different. Daniel 9 is unrecognizable and the Weeks don't even add up to 70. It was well known that the text was corrupted. There were several other Greek translations made centuries later. The version of Daniel by Theodotian is the one that is in the LXX and most people don't even realize that.
 
Here is the opposite opinion of an expert linguist scholar.

Prof. Neubauer gives many reasons for his "belief that few
Jews in Palestine had a substantial knowledge of Greek." One of
them is, that no events had occurred which could have made
" Greek prominent in Palestine," (p. 62) ; that no nation ever
makes so great a change in its language as to adopt " a totally different
" one, unless the conqueror transports the greater part of
the inhabitants, and introduces foreign colonists who are far more
numerous than the remaining inhabitants ; and that the Greeks
had never this superiority of numbers in Palestine, (p. 64.) He
says that few Greek words occur in the Jewish writings such as
the Mishnah, the Targums, and the Talmud of Jerusalem ; that
*' no apocryphal book, as far as our knowledge goes, was composed
in Greek by a Palestinian Jew," (p. 65) ; that " so far as he can
judge, all that the Jews in Palestine learned of Greek was at most
a few sentences, sufficient to enable them to carry on trade, and to
hold intercourse with the lower officials ; and that even this
minimum certainly ceased after the Maccabean victory over
Antiochus Epiphanes ; because it was the interest of the Asmonean
Princes to keep the Jews aloof from the influence of the neighbouring
dialects," (p. 66.)

Professor Neubauer thinks that those Hebrews who lived in cities
occupied chiefly by Greeks, " may have acquired a fair knowledge
of conversational Greek, but not to such an extent as to enable
them to speak it in public," (p. 67.) He says that even those Jews
of Egypt and Asia Minor who spoke Greek, maintained a connection
with the mother-land by going to Jerusalem for feast-days;
and that "we may infer that they all still spoke, more or less,
their native Hebrew dialect, because no mention is made of interpreters
being required for them either in the temple or outside of
it," (pp. 62, 63.)

The Greek translation of the Old-Covenant Hebrew Scriptures,
called the Septuagint, which was made in Egypt, existed in the time
of Christ ; but Prof. Neubauer says, " we may boldly state that this
Greek translation of the Bible was unknown in Palestine, except
to men of the schools, and perhaps a few of the Hellenistic Jews.
It is said in the Talmud that when the Greek translation of the
Seventy appeared, there came darkness upon the earth, and that
the day was as unfortunate for Israel, as that on which the golden
calf was made," (p. 67.)

The fact that the Jews at Jerusalem who spoke Greek are called
Hellenists, that is, Grecians, in Acts vi. 1, and ix. 29, shows
that their Greek speech made them a peculiar class quite distinct
from the rest of the people.

p xiii "A Translation in English Daily Used of the Peshito-Syriac Text & the Received Greek Text", William Norton
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
The Greek translation of the Old-Covenant Hebrew Scriptures,
called the Septuagint, which was made in Egypt, existed in the time
of Christ ; but Prof. Neubauer says, " we may boldly state that this
Greek translation of the Bible was unknown in Palestine, except
to men of the schools, and perhaps a few of the Hellenistic Jews.
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me.
 
EclipseEventSigns said:
But you didn't include anything verifiable in your post.
Click to expand...

BEL AND THE DRAGON - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Complete contents the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia.
jewishencyclopedia.com jewishencyclopedia.com

www.britannica.com

Septuagint | Greek, Hebrew & Aramaic Sources | Britannica

Septuagint, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew. The Septuagint was presumably made for the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the common language throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the
www.britannica.com www.britannica.com

Septuagint, abbreviation LXX, the earliest extant Greek translation of the Old Testament from the original Hebrew. The Septuagint was presumably made for the Jewish community in Egypt when Greek was the common language throughout the region. Analysis of the language has established that the Torah, or Pentateuch (the first five books of the Old Testament), was translated near the middle of the 3rd century BCE and that the rest of the Old Testament was translated in the 2nd century BCE.

The name Septuagint (from the Latin septuaginta, “70”) was derived later from the legend that there were 72 translators, 6 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, who worked independently to translate the whole and ultimately produced identical versions. Another legend holds that the translators were sent to Alexandria by Eleazar, the chief priest at Jerusalem, at the request of Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285–246 BCE), though its source, the Letter of Aristeas, is unreliable. Despite the tradition that it was perfectly translated, there are large differences in style and usage between the Septuagint’s translation of the Torah and its translations of the later books in the Old Testament. In the 3rd century CE Origen attempted to clear up copyists’ errors that had crept into the text of the Septuagint, which by then varied widely from copy to copy, and a number of other scholars consulted the Hebrew texts in order to make the Septuagint more accurate.


Rabbi Tovia Singer and his "side of the story"
 
Last edited:
EclipseEventSigns said:
Bible was unknown in Palestine, except
to men of the schools, and perhaps a few of the Hellenistic Jews.
It is said in the Talmud that when the Greek translation of the
Seventy appeared, there came darkness upon the earth, and that
the day was as unfortunate for Israel, as that on which the golden
calf was made," (p. 67.)
Click to expand...
And who do you think were "The men of the Yeshiva?"

Shall we consult the Targums, Mishna, Midrash?
Thanks
Johann.
 

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