The Jesuit Roots of Preterism

Victoria

Active Member
Confronting Preterism’s Roots:


A Jesuit Counter-Reformation

Strategy in Modern Protestant Garb
Introduction

Modern Christian eschatology is a landscape of divergent systems, with futurism, historicism, idealism, and preterism each vying for scriptural credibility. Among these, preterism—the belief that most or all biblical prophecies, particularly in Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, were fulfilled in the first century—has gained increasing traction among certain conservative Protestants, especially within the Reformed tradition. Advocates like R.C. Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, and Gary DeMar have helped popularize a form of “partial preterism” which teaches that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the fulfillment of much of Jesus’ prophetic discourse, and possibly Revelation itself.

However, what is often left unacknowledged is the origin of preterism in the Counter-Reformation, developed not as a neutral theological system, but as an intentional apologetic maneuver by a Jesuit priest— Luis de Alcázar—to shield the Roman Catholic Church from the charge of being the Antichrist. Recognizing this historical context should give modern non-Catholic preterists pause. Can a theological system born as a defense of the Papacy now serve as a reliable lens for interpreting prophecy within Protestantism?

Luis de Alcázar and the Birth of Preterism

Luis de Alcázar (1554–1613), a Spanish Jesuit and theologian, lived and worked during the height of the Catholic Counter-Reformation—the Church’s organized response to the Protestant Reformation. During this period, the Papacy faced relentless accusations from Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, and Knox, all of whom identified the Pope as the Antichrist and the Roman Church as the Babylon of Revelation. This interpretation was central to the historicist framework adopted by Protestants, which saw prophecy as unfolding throughout church history, with the Roman Catholic Church playing a prominent role in opposition to Christ.

Alcazar_title_page.webp
In this context, Alcázar composed his magnum opus, Vestigatio Arcani Sensus in Apocalypsi (published posthumously in 1614), a massive commentary on the book of Revelation. His key thesis was that Revelation does not concern the distant future, nor the corruptions of the medieval church, but rather was fulfilled almost entirely in the early centuries of Christianity. He argued that the prophecies referred to:

- The persecution of Christians under pagan Rome,

- The fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70,

- The triumph of the Church over her early enemies.


This radical reinterpretation had a clear purpose: to exonerate the Roman Church from the accusations of the Reformers by recasting Revelation as a closed book, already fulfilled and thus irrelevant to the contemporary church. Alcázar’s preterism was not developed in theological isolation or dispassionate study—it was deeply political, crafted to neutralize Protestant polemics and defend the authority of the Papacy.

The Jesuit Context and Counter-
Reformation Strategy


To understand Alcázar’s motivations, one must understand the role of the Jesuits in the Counter-Reformation. Founded in 1540 by Ignatius of Loyola, the Society of Jesus was tasked with confronting Protestantism intellectually, politically, and spiritually. Jesuits became the vanguard of Rome’s theological offensive, producing scholars who would reinterpret Scripture in ways that advanced Catholic interests.

In this environment, Alcázar’s approach offered a powerful tool: reinterpret the prophecies not as future threats to ecclesiastical power, but as past events that vindicated the Church’s origins and historical mission. This strategy allowed Catholic theologians to answer Protestant charges with academic sophistication while redirecting the focus of Revelation away from Rome’s abuses and onto the Roman Empire of antiquity.

Matthew 16:28 — A Test Case in
Interpretive Divergence


One key verse that reveals the contrast between Alcázar’s approach and traditional or premillennial views is Matthew 16:28, where Jesus declares:

“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” (KJV)

Alcázar and modern preterists interpret this verse as referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, asserting that this event was the “coming of the Son of Man in judgment.” They argue that Christ came spiritually and symbolically to end the old covenant order.

However, early church fathers, such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus, and many modern premillennialists, interpret this as referring to either:

- The Transfiguration (a foretaste of kingdom glory witnessed by Peter, James, and John),

- Or a reference to the Second Coming, with “some” possibly referring to John living long enough to receive the vision of Christ in Revelation.


Premillennialists reject the idea that A.D. 70 fulfilled Christ’s return, since the actual return is bodily, visible, and cosmic, as described in Acts 1:11 and Revelation 19. They hold that the kingdom’s full manifestation is still future, involving Christ’s reign on earth. In this way, Alcázar’s interpretation significantly redefines the nature and timing of Christ’s return, spiritualizing what the early church and historic premillennialists took literally and future.

Modern Protestant Adoption of Preterism

Ironically, the seeds planted by Alcázar have sprouted in modern conservative Protestant circles, particularly among Reformed theologians seeking to make sense of eschatology in a post Enlightenment age. Frustrated by sensationalist dispensationalism and attracted to covenantal themes, many have turned to preterism— especially partial preterism—as a more scholarly and historically grounded alternative.

They argue that:

- Jesus’ prophecies in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 were fulfilled in A.D. 70.

- The tribulation and judgment referred to the end of the Jewish age, not a future global apocalypse.

- Revelation (or most of it) describes first-century events like Nero’s persecution, the fall of Jerusalem, and the vindication of the Church.


While this system may appeal to the Reformed mind due to its textual nuance and historical grounding, it must be acknowledged that it shares a theological DNA with Counter-Reformation Romanism, designed to protect the very institution the Reformers protested.

A Call for Discernment

Modern Protestants who adopt preterism—especially those who claim to be faithful to the Reformation—must wrestle with this uncomfortable reality. Can one claim to be historically aligned with Luther, Calvin, or Knox while employing an interpretive method crafted to refute them? Should a system invented to defend the Papacy now guide the Church in understanding prophecy?

Furthermore, preterism’s implications can be troubling:

  • It diminishes the relevance of Christ’s return as a future, bodily hope.
  • It often blurs the lines between Israel and the Church, leading to replacement theology.
  • It can lead to theological complacency, as prophecy is viewed as “already fulfilled” and no longer an urgent motivator for mission, warning, or vigilance.
Even partial preterists, who still affirm a future Second Coming, must admit that their system depends heavily on Alcázar’s groundwork, even if stripped of its Catholic polemics.

Conclusion

Preterism did not arise from the fertile soil of Protestant exegesis or early Christian consensus—it was born in the crucible of religious warfare, forged by a Jesuit hand to shield the Roman Church from condemnation. While today’s preterists may approach the system with sincere intentions and theological rigor, they cannot escape the historical origins of the method they use.

To remain faithful to the principles of sola Scriptura and the historic Protestant testimony, the Church must examine not only what a system teaches, but also why it was developed and who first wielded it. In the case of preterism, that path leads not to Geneva, Wittenberg, or the early church—but to Seville, to Jesuit scholars, and to the defenders of Rome.


By: Lacy Evans

The Jesuit Roots of Preterism
 
Preterism did not arise from the fertile soil of Protestant exegesis or early Christian consensus—it was born in the crucible of religious warfare, forged by a Jesuit hand to shield the Roman Church from condemnation.
Wrong. Preterism arises from the Scriptures themselves, as originally given by God and Christ to the prophets and the disciples, with particular emphasis given to the meaning of the original languages. You are attempting to "poison the well", so to speak by claiming that Alcazar originated Preterism. He didn't. God and Christ did. The Reformers were incorrect to assign the Papacy to any role whatever as fulfillment of prophecy, but whatever Alcazar wrote to prove that is immaterial. It is the Scriptures themselves which are the guide for interpreting the prophecies, and they do NOT point to the Papacy or to Catholicism as the fulfillment of any prophecies at all - no matter how badly it has strayed from the truth.

Preterism is not a "system". Preterism is the result of paying careful attention to the language Scripture uses, and the temporal indicators it employs which tell us when prophecies were to be fulfilled.
 
Premillennialists reject the idea that A.D. 70 fulfilled Christ’s return, since the actual return is bodily, visible, and cosmic, as described in Acts 1:11 and Revelation 19.
Christ's AD 70 return was most definitely bodily and visible on the Mount of Olives, which ushered in world-wide effects of the New Heavens and New Earth reality which believers have lived in since then. Christ is not waiting to reign. He rules now in the midst of His enemies, as prophesied, and will continue to do so until the final judgment which brings fallen mankind's history to an end.
 
Luis de Alcázar and the Birth of Preterism
Umm ... was there really NOBODY that advocated for "preterism" before the 1500's?

What of Origen (c. 185–254) and Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340) who are cited for their commentary on biblical prophecy?
 
Christ's AD 70 return was most definitely bodily and visible on the Mount of Olives, which ushered in world-wide effects of the New Heavens and New Earth reality which believers have lived in since then. Christ is not waiting to reign. He rules now in the midst of His enemies, as prophesied, and will continue to do so until the final judgment which brings fallen mankind's history to an end.
Where is that written 3Rs? It is not biblical so which ancient historian recorded it?

Thanks
 
Where is that written 3Rs? It is not biblical so which ancient historian recorded it?
Yes, the first-century fulfillment of the New Heavens and New Earth were proven biblically. Check out Hebrews 12:26-27 to begin with. God had "NOW" promised (in that first-century time frame when Hebrews was written around AD 64) to shake not only the earth, but the heavens also, so that what was shaken would be "REMOVED". Anything that could be shaken was removed from existence back then in that shaking process that was going to take place in that first-century generation. This changed the reality in both heaven and earth, leaving the unshaken kingdom of God to remain in place - the NHNE reality.

The New Jerusalem that came from heaven down to earth back then is the spiritual reality of Christ the reigning King of kings in that New Jerusalem. He has been ruling "in the midst of His enemies", because outside the open gates of that New Jerusalem, there are still the wicked existing and committing sin (Rev. 22:15).

Isaiah 65's New Heavens and New Earth was NOT a description of the ages of eternity. It was describing the conditions under which believers live, even today, with growing crops and building homes, bearing children, and praying to God, with death still occurring for both the wicked and the righteous.

As for Christ's visible and bodily return, Christ said Himself that He would return in the glory of His Father with the angels to give rewards to all according to their works, and He said there were some standing in front of Him at that time who would still be alive to see that happen (Matt. 16:27-28). I need no historian to confirm this. Christ's word is good enough for me, even without mentioning the archaeological evidence that backs it up. Any return of Christ is going to involve a visible, bodily "appearance", since He never abandoned that glorified, resurrected human body form.

And Zechariah 12-14 with its prophecy for Israel described the AD 66-70 siege conditions against both Jerusalem and Judah (Zech. 12:2), during which Christ was going to return bodily to the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4-5). Already done and over with.
 
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And Zechariah 12-14 with its prophecy for Israel described the AD 66-70 siege conditions against both Jerusalem and Judah (Zech. 12:2), during which Christ was going to return bodily to the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:4-5). Already done and over with.
Is there any historical evidence that could point us in the direction of confirming this interpretation as accurate?

One can find historical evidence of Noah's flood, the days of Lot, & most importantly, the crucifixion of Christ.
It's just hard to believe that God all of a sudden decided to become allegorical from there on out.

Below is a current, & popular doctrine circulating around. He covers Preterism, both partial as well as full.


How much prophecy has yet to be fulfilled? There are some who believe that all or most events prophesied in the Bible have already come to pass. Is this view founded in The Word or is it a spiritualization, a misunderstanding, or a case of not having eyes to see or ears to hear God’s Spirit in the writing of His words? This 1 hour and 20 min deep-dive into one form of Preterism will answer much.

Satan's Little Season
 
Is there any historical evidence that could point us in the direction of confirming this interpretation as accurate?
Yes. Try the prediction of the dying Jacob in Genesis 49 when he prophesied of what would befall his descendants "in the last days". For Jacob's son Judah, the prediction was that "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, UNTIL Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be." (Gen. 49:10).

Now flip over to Zechariah 12 describing the AD 66-70 "siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem" (Zech. 12:2) when God was going to "open my eyes upon the house of Judah" (Zech. 12:4) and use the governors of Judah to "devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left...The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah as at the beginning, that the boast of the house of David and the pride of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah." (Zech. 12:6-7).

There are plenty of references here to the lawgiver tribe of Judah's activities during this siege against Judah and Jerusalem, with God using that tribe in particular as a tool to exact His vengeance upon His people. But no mention of the tribe of Judah prevailing as a "lawgiver" past the point when Christ's feet would stand on the Mount of Olives and bring all the holy ones with Him (Zech. 14:4-5). That is because the Lord as "Shiloh" had come at that point to "gather" His resurrected people to Himself, just as Jacob had prophesied long ago for "the last days" of Israel. The genealogies of all the tribes were burned up in this siege period when the archives were destroyed by the Zealots, as God intended. Those "endless genealogies" had become "unprofitable and vain", as Paul taught in his epistles.

I have written before on the archaeological evidence of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70, as Zechariah predicted. And there is plenty of internal Scripture evidence that proves this also, if one knows where to look.

Satan's Little Season
Satan's "little season" or "short time" had already begun even before John was writing Revelation, as proved by John's warning to his own first-century readers in Rev. 12:12. That "short time" lasted from Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 until Satan and the entire Satanic realm was imprisoned within Jerusalem's walls during the AD 66-70 siege. God disposed of Satan and the entire Satanic realm in that location by the close of AD 70. Satan became "divided against himself" in the city at that time, which is why his kingdom "had an end". All the Scriptures unite to prove this.
 
Yes. Try the prediction of the dying Jacob in Genesis 49 when he prophesied of what would befall his descendants "in the last days". For Jacob's son Judah, the prediction was that "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, UNTIL Shiloh come; and unto Him shall the gathering of the people be." (Gen. 49:10).
I have written before on the archaeological evidence of Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70, as Zechariah predicted. And there is plenty of internal Scripture evidence that proves this also, if one knows where to look.
Satan's "little season" or "short time" had already begun even before John was writing Revelation, as proved by John's warning to his own first-century readers in Rev. 12:12. That "short time" lasted from Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33 until Satan and the entire Satanic realm was imprisoned within Jerusalem's walls during the AD 66-70 siege. God disposed of Satan and the entire Satanic realm in that location by the close of AD 70. Satan became "divided against himself" in the city at that time, which is why his kingdom "had an end". All the Scriptures unite to prove this.
The type of historical evidence I meant was literal, physical evidence. For example, Answers in Genesis shows actual evidence of Noah's flood. Another example would be that of Sodom & Gomorrah, where visitors show how pure the sulfur balls that rained down from God out of heaven are, how everything had literally turned to dust, & that still until this day, it's left uninhabited just as God had said it would be.

Some believe they've found astonishing evidence at Mt. Sinai, where it's all burnt. Then there's the possibility they've discovered the pillar of salt of Lot's wife, etc.

The point Steve makes in his Satan's Little Season video is that there's no solid foundation Preterists can stand upon w/out actual evidence these prophecies had already come to pass (i.e. who was the beast & false prophet, when did Israel as a whole see Him whom they have pierced, when did Jesus reign & bring peace upon the earth for 1,000 years, when did the world at any time know of the Lord, when was the curse lifted from the earth, when have people lived hundreds of years again, etc.)?

WW II was far worse for the Jews than the war that took place in A.D. 70. This therefore could not have been the fulfillment of the Armageddon prophecy stated in Matthew 24:21. Following Armageddon, God said there would be no more war, 'nor would they ever train for war.

Umm ... was there really NOBODY that advocated for "preterism" before the 1500's?

What of Origen (c. 185–254) and Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–340) who are cited for their commentary on biblical prophecy?
I did post a thread on Origen earlier.

I really appreciate how respectful you both have been in response to my thread on this topic. As Christians, we tend to forget at times what Paul taught us in Ephesians 6:10-17.



Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:



🙏
 
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The type of historical evidence I meant was literal, physical evidence. For example, Answers in Genesis shows actual evidence of Noah's flood. Another example would be that of Sodom & Gomorrah, where visitors show how pure the sulfur balls that rained down from God out of heaven are, how everything had literally turned to dust, & that still until this day, it's left uninhabited just as God had said it would be.

Some believe they've found astonishing evidence at Mt. Sinai, where it's all burnt. Then there's the possibility they've discovered the pillar of salt of Lot's wife, et
I have posted on this archaeological and historical evidence of Christ's AD 70 bodily return before on another site, and can discuss any of the following points with you if you wish.

#1) The deep layer of earthquake rubble dated from Christ's AD 70 return to the Mount of Olives, still deposited in the Kidron Valley today that fulfills Zechariah 14:4-5 (LXX) of when an earthquake would cause the Kidron valley to be "blocked up as far as Azal", just like it was in King Uzziah's day. The crest of the Mount of Olives today is not nearly as high as it was in Christ's days, because it broke apart in all directions and fell downhill to collect in the bed of the Kidron Valley when it was "closed up" as far as the Azal location (the Wadi Yasul on today's maps).

#2) All the empty ossuaries that we find that are dated to this second temple period, including the intact Caiphas family tomb in Jerusalem's Peace Forest area discovered with 6 empty ossuaries and 6 with human bones still left in them, including those of Caiaphas. The mortal remains of the wicked do not rise to life again in the "resurrection to destruction".

#3) The empty burial cave of Machpelah where Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, and Leah and the mummified Jacob were buried together. (Not the false traditional site, but the one discovered by Wyatt's team in Hebron with three double niches for three pairs of bodies)

#4) The eastern gate of Herod's second temple being torn down to the last stone - the eastern gate location being exclusively used for the use of the "Prince" where the people were to worship in the Sabbaths and the new moons - symbolizing the location of where the Christ the "Prince" would return. That gate opposite the Mount of Olives served its symbolic purpose for Christ's bodily return in AD 70, and was torn down to the last stone, along with the temple in AD 70.

#5) Likewise the total destruction of the second temple eliminated the "secret chambers" of that temple in which Christ predicted that false prophets would appear (the "chamber of secrets" where anonymous donations for the poor were collected and stored). Since these "secret chambers" no longer exist since AD 70, that means Christ's prediction of those false prophets showing up in those "secret chambers" before His own return is already fulfilled prophecy.

#6) The comparison between the casualty and census records we have from the AD 66-70 period give us an idea of the number of people who fled Jerusalem and Judea for the mountains in AD 66, in obedience to Christ's warning. They would not have fled to the mountains (like Pella) in numbers approaching 1-1/4 million unless they saw that Olivet Discourse "abomination of desolation" ("Jerusalem surrounded by armies") being fulfilled in their own first-century days.

#7) The Siebenberg House Museum in Old Jerusalem that over the years has excavated straight down through the ash layer of Jerusalem's AD 70 destruction, and down to the level of the first temple period with an empty tomb.

The point Steve makes in his Satan's Little Season video is that there's no solid foundation Preterists can stand upon w/out actual evidence these prophecies had already come to pass (i.e. who was the beast & false prophet, when did Israel as a whole see Him whom they have pierced, when did Jesus reign & bring peace upon the earth for 1,000 years, when did the world at any time know of the Lord, when was the curse lifted from the earth, when have people lived hundreds of years again, etc.)?
I listened to quite a bit of the video from the link you gave and found the speaker attempting to prove most of his points with an argument from silence - a rather weak defense of his position. And much of his quoted prophetic material from the OT was not taking into consideration the temporal context of those prophecies that were fulfilled in the time around Israel's Babylonian exile and the post-exilic return. He is also off on his expiration date of the millennium (which Rev. 20:5 tells us was "finished" at the AD 33 "First resurrection"). He also uses the typical "world" (kosmos) interpretation of Scriptures predictions which are actually dedicated to the "earth" or the "land" (tes ges) of Israel in particular, and not the globe at large. This exaggerates his expectations of how the many prophecies would be fulfilled by expecting them to take place on a worldwide scope, when they were to be local predictions for the Israelites in their own land.

His late dating evidence for Revelation's composition is also way off when he uses the typical misunderstanding of what Irenaeus wrote. Revelation's own internal evidence gives us plenty of clues that pin down the composition date to somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - no earlier and no later than this. In short, though I agree with a few points he made in this video, his position was full of holes as he tried to discredit Preterism. Not a strong case at all.
 
@3 Resurrections @Victoria @FreeInChrist
Wrong. Preterism arises from the Scriptures themselves, as originally given by God and Christ to the prophets and the disciples, with particular emphasis given to the meaning of the original languages.
I'll come back to this thread later, but for now, I will say you are dead wrong concerning your new founded religion, which you said you only came to understand this around 12 years ago or so.
I really appreciate how respectful you both have been in response to my thread on this topic. As Christians, we tend to forget at times what Paul taught us in Ephesians 6:10-17.
Victoria, 3 Resurrection will be very gracious to you, which I can attest to since I have known him for almost forty years~a very gracious person, but he been drinking someone's kool aid lately.

@ 3 Resurrection Later, since I'm very busy this week preparing for a message for Sunday for the group that split from JRC. They ask me to speak.
 
I'll come back to this thread later, but for now, I will say you are dead wrong concerning your new founded religion, which you said you only came to understand this around 12 years ago or so.
Well, Red, I'm sure you remember that "the path of the just is as the shining light, which shineth more and more unto the perfect day." I am not sorry that I am attempting to progress beyond the "milk" of the Word of God. I can quite honestly say that in the past 13 years, I have come to love the Scriptures I read and the God who wrote them more than I ever thought possible, given the twisted exposure to the teaching of the church you and I once shared.

You speak of a "new-founded religion". I fell in love with God's book again 13 years ago, and the path of my personal studies led to Preterism. You may not agree with any of it at all, but I can tell you that I feel as if I am drinking from a fire hose these past years - straight from the living water of God's Word. I attended church nowhere at all for 9 years, so the source of my studies is certainly not anybody in a pulpit handing out "koolaid" to me.

@ 3 Resurrection Later, since I'm very busy this week preparing for a message for Sunday for the group that split from JRC. They ask me to speak.
If you have time and happen to think about it, PM me and let me know how its going.
 
His late dating evidence for Revelation's composition is also way off when he uses the typical misunderstanding of what Irenaeus wrote. Revelation's own internal evidence gives us plenty of clues that pin down the composition date to somewhere between late AD 59 and early AD 60 - no earlier and no later than this. In short, though I agree with a few points he made in this video, his position was full of holes as he tried to discredit Preterism. Not a strong case at all.
Orthodox Christianity interprets God's prophetic Word literally. If one interprets the scriptures allegorically/figuratively/etc... one can interpret them any which way they like b/c they are not bound by the words on the page. I believe the Holy Ghost meant the following literally...

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

We're still under God's grace, so reality tells us that God hasn't yet poured out His wrath upon the earth. Also, the BoC still being here tells us that the Judgment Seat of Christ for the just/saved hasn't yet taken place. Paul said we'll be in the heavens. The final judgment you speak of is the Great White Throne, which is reserved for the unjust/unsaved.

Islam still exists in the Middle East, which tells us prophecy concerning the descendants of Esau (Edom) hasn't yet been fulfilled.

God has been real silent the past 2,000 years. The dispensation of grace is still in effect. Once that ends, check mate ;)
 
Victoria, 3 Resurrection will be very gracious to you, which I can attest to since I have known him for almost forty years~a very gracious person, but he been drinking someone's kool aid lately.
I really appreciate that 3 R's replies are coming more from a place of grace, & not of hostility :)
 
@Victoria
I really appreciate that 3 R's replies are coming more from a place of grace, & not of hostility :)
And, I'm convinced that he always will continue to be very gracious, if he's not, let me know, I'll get him.
 
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