Reason to Believe in God - Part I

Wrangler

Well-known member
I'm not sure if Evangelism is the right thread for the topic. I feel like Christians do not play the hand God gave us as well as we could and should regarding reaching out to others. Yes, faith is important but it does not resonate with unbelievers. So, I want to create 2 threads that deal with the mantra of the educated and scientifically literate, EVIDENCE. I hope you can help me compile the evidence to use in reaching out to unbelievers.

PART I. What facts cause a reasonable person to believe in God?
PART II. What facts of the Bible or your life would cause a reasonable person to believe in the God of the Bible?

My thought process prefers to go from general to specific. So, we start with the inspiration of my favorite Psalm, 19. In the 1st half of the psalm, look to the natural world.

In the last few decades emerging science has produced a mountain of overwhelming evidence for God in the form of what is generally called FINE TUNING. This crosses over many disciplines of science. I'll start by ripping the heart out of evolution with observations of IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY.

Evolution supposes life exists through random changes that product natural selection of the survival of the fittest. Irreducible complexity shows the complexity of the subparts of the cell violate this basic tenet of evolution. Things like the flagella in every living cell function like a motor. IF this developed part by part rather than in its whole complexity it would hinder survival. How do Atheists explain this?

I look forward to your contributions to this thread.
 
Another example. The most complicated chemical in the world is life, the DNA molecule. In the 1990's scientists discovered DNA's arrangement of molecules, and how it changes in response to stimuli, constitutes information. Like a computer program, there is informational content in the very molecular structure of life forms. Who programmed this information? Obviously, our Creator.

There was no way for Darwin to realize the complexity in living cells when he developed is Origin of the Species.
 
A lot of the arguments for God just lead to a either a form of skepticism (we don't know everything yet), or a denial of materialism (there are things hard to quantify about our existence). Either that or resolving some logical dilemma of doctrine. And of course narrowing the God down to the specific Christian God gets less and less logical, as you see Muslims using a lot of the same Apologetic arguments, indeed, being the first to come up with some of them. The whole idea you can prove God with your great intellect and logic is just based in a faulty and erroneous foundation that leads to trusting in man's own ability to figure everything out, and man's own innate moral sense of what makes sense to him.

I watched a Ray Comfort video recently on 10 reasons AI gave him to believe in God, and the 2 reasons that had to do with personal experience he downplayed and skipped over (although one reason was also "overly complex" to him). But no one comes to God with their great intellect, it is not the smarter people who believe more in God, and in fact in the end Comfort is really just preaching not logically justifying anything. This emphasis on intellectual justification just constantly feeds pride, pride, pride, and also feeds this attitude of judgmentalism, being critical that atheists are all stupid and stubborn. If instead, the truth were to come only as a gift from God, and only through responding with a desire to find God, the whole intellectual realm which just be superfluous dressing, mere icing on the real cake.

And this is why I'm not a big fan of the Christian Apologetic movement; it's like believers realized their beliefs might "look stupid and silly" to other people, so this great movement based in unbelief and pride has to make Christianity an intellectually satisfying and valid choice. Oh, I've met believers who swore apologetic arguments convinced them and are what kept them or brought them back in the faith, and I think they really believe that. But underneath all that intellectual mastication, there had to have been the grace of God and a desire to know him. Sure, God in his mercy can use apologetics and arguments, but it's in spite of them not because of them. I've always been a thoughtful philosophical type; and so in some ways I was predisposed to really like to explore things in thought. And I'm not a better person, I have fallen for all the same wrong motivations, I really want to feel good about myself, feel like my logic and intellect validates me, and confirms everything I believe, because I'm so smart and I figured it all out and got it all in place. But the truth is, God simply revealed himself to me. Then later I fell into pride and unbelief, idolatry, resentment, and a rebellious attitude, and then my faith was shattered because I was, without realizing it, depending on myself for security and feeling smug about it. It's no coincidence fear is linked with pride spiritually, as there is no more poor source of security than oneself.

The humility and brokenness and realness of an authentic and genuine relationship with God, that doesn't have all the answers, that doesn't have it all figured out, that sometimes struggles with the same doubts and logical problems and frustrations of all the stupid atheists it is so easy to look down on, the genuineness of a real and authentic experience with God that even the one experiencing can't fully define or explain all the answers why—the reliance, the dependence, the true and deep knowledge that one is no better than anyone else, and all our motivations are as sinful and faulty and inept as another; the genuine transformation of character, honesty of struggles, and actual fulfillment found in God, no matter how small or imperfect; the actual compassion and sincere care for another lost soul, willing to sacrifice, willing to look stupid, willing to take risks, willing to trust God when it doesn't even seem like it's working, willing to spend the hard time in prayer, willing to shed tears instead of win arguments, willing to lower ourselves on our knees instead of posture ourselves as superior: these are the real things that convince people a God exists and bring the knowledge of him to others. People want to know if what we have is real and if it really does something.

I have learned things through intellectual study. Interesting things, clever things, and yes some trot out all the same "mindy" verses, "love the Lord God with all your mind," and "always be ready to give an answer," and Paul reasoning in Athens, and all the other mental verses scraped out to defend the intellect. Of course, there are far more verses saying the Gospel is foolishness to the natural mind, and God's ways are so far above even our capacity to know, that they are higher than the heavens above the earth; that God dwells with the lowly over the intellectual, and a demonic veil is over all the unbelievers that only the Lord can take away. But we'll squeak our mighty intellect in there anyway, even though there are other ways to view these proof texts on the mind. And God forbid he ever do something we don't morally approve of or fully feel able to explain or justify with our reasoning.

You won't find a single person who knew God or was used by God, in the Bible, who did not have some kind of experience with God that was the basis of their call and walk. It's not there. And it's just a sign of how back-slidden, how worldly, how spiritually sick the church is, that is has so often turned to these spiritual crutches to look and feel better about its faith, instead of spending quality time developing a prayer life. Many have turned to filling themselves with feeling right over their doctrines, and doing all the right external things, and the false religious trappings of feeling good about knowing more truth, yet blind to the fact that it's all in the head, and underneath is a great lack of sanctification, a hardness of heart, a love of worldly activities, a bickering divisive spirit, an independent self-willed stubbornness, a self-righteous prideful superior attitude, a rejoicing in compromising with the entertainments of the world while patting themselves on the back about how holy they are.

We need to get back to spiritual basics, and pursue God until we know we've found him in a way that every logical problem in the world could not shake, because we are willing to look stupid for God, whether others call it brainwashing and mindless leaps of faith, or not. A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. Encountering God will change every facet of our being and give us a freedom, discernment and motivation that no amount of mental and soulish striving to be smarter, more successful, morally superior Christians will ever be. To say "I really don't know" to something is not a sin, and to say "the only thing I know is not because I can prove it," will feed a spiritual hunger and thirst that encyclopedic volumes of answers to objections from the skeptic just never will. We're replaced spiritual depth and life with intellectual fervor, and it's just a skeleton with no breath, it's a propped up mannequin dressed so nicely with no real heart and soul.

It may not be what many want to hear, but that's my contribution to this thread.

Then let us know--let us press on to know--Yahweh, Like the dawn, is his coming forth assured,--that he may come like a down-pour upon us, like the harvest-rain, [and] the seed-rain of the land. (Hos. 6:3 ROT)
 
it is not the smarter people who believe more in God
OMG! This deserves its own thread.

As I see it, this is an application of the IDOLATRY of knowledge. "Smart" people, who are actually indoctrinated into materialism, have embraced an external god that we might find out there. If your compass is broken, it won't lead you to where you want to go.
 
Oh, I've met believers who swore apologetic arguments convinced them and are what kept them or brought them back in the faith, and I think they really believe that. But underneath all that intellectual mastication, there had to have been the grace of God and a desire to know him
It is such people that this thread is dedicated.

It is unsatisfactory to tell such people, "you have to have faith." I sincerely believe there is objective evidence for the existence of God - overwhelming objective evidence. Each instance is merely a stepping stone for those who knock, seek and ask. Without us playing the winning hand God dealt us, we are failing that dimension of the Great Commission.
 
I've always been a thoughtful philosophical type; and so in some ways I was predisposed to really like to explore things in thought. And I'm not a better person, I have fallen for all the same wrong motivations, I really want to feel good about myself, feel like my logic and intellect validates me, and confirms everything I believe, because I'm so smart and I figured it all out and got it all in place. But the truth is, God simply revealed himself to me.
That is my experience, as well.
 
The humility and brokenness and realness of an authentic and genuine relationship with God, that doesn't have all the answers, that doesn't have it all figured out, that sometimes struggles with the same doubts and logical problems and frustrations of all the stupid atheists it is so easy to look down on, the genuineness of a real and authentic experience with God that even the one experiencing can't fully define or explain all the answers why—the reliance, the dependence, the true and deep knowledge that one is no better than anyone else, and all our motivations are as sinful and faulty and inept as another; the genuine transformation of character, honesty of struggles, and actual fulfillment found in God, no matter how small or imperfect; the actual compassion and sincere care for another lost soul, willing to sacrifice, willing to look stupid, willing to take risks, willing to trust God when it doesn't even seem like it's working, willing to spend the hard time in prayer, willing to shed tears instead of win arguments, willing to lower ourselves on our knees instead of posture ourselves as superior: these are the real things that convince people a God exists and bring the knowledge of him to others. People want to know if what we have is real and if it really does something.
That's a long sentence, right there. :unsure:
 
But we'll squeak our mighty intellect in there anyway, even though there are other ways to view these proof texts on the mind.
Again, you are denying a pathway to save others on the grounds that a path they are not on would save thing more efficiently. A horrible argument, IMO.
 
To say "I really don't know" to something is not a sin, and to say "the only thing I know is not because I can prove it," will feed a spiritual hunger and thirst that encyclopedic volumes of answers to objections from the skeptic just never will.
For some. For others who are like we were, it will be dismissed as emotionalism. I feel X is true, so it must be true.
 
We're replaced spiritual depth and life with intellectual fervor,
My friend, all you wrote should have been in Part II.

Remember the Armor of God? And the quivers that Elisha told the king to shoot? We have more than one weapon at our disposal. Spiritual depth, yes. And intellectual fervor? Also yes.

I intend to cede nothing. Give no ground or quarter to be the Devil's play ground. You?
 
Another example. The most complicated chemical in the world is life, the DNA molecule. In the 1990's scientists discovered DNA's arrangement of molecules, and how it changes in response to stimuli, constitutes information. Like a computer program, there is informational content in the very molecular structure of life forms. Who programmed this information? Obviously, our Creator.

There was no way for Darwin to realize the complexity in living cells when he developed is Origin of the Species.
DNA is an atheist/agnostic killer. There is nothing like macro science that declares the glory of God though the microscope. The information systems within the DNA structure is mind blowing. An impossibility with evolution.
 
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In another website I postulated 5 proofs of God.
  1. Existence
  2. Life
  3. The Resurrection of Jesus Christ
  4. The martyrdom of the Apostles
  5. Testimony of billions over the millennia.
The thing about the scientific theory of "The Big Bang" is that it mirrors the moment of Creation. So, Atheist have postulated a multi-verse theory of existence. No physical evidence for it, mind you. This puts them in the very uncomfortable position of abdicating the intellectual high ground of evidence based decision making and rely on faith.

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I saw a vid a couple of years ago where an archeologist was looking for the city of Sodom. He found it!

Right where it was supposed to be. All around the area remain to this day sulfur balls about an inch in diameter.

When chemically tested, these sulfur balls have a purity GREATER than is capable of being manufactured today. It gives me goode bumps, sends shivers up my spine.
 
The best reason I can come up with to believe in God is because he wants us to. I think it's been his plan since the fall of Lucifer. He wants us to love him totally.
 
Welcome to the boards @Maurice.

As iron sharpens iron, I like to generate as many avenues to persuade an unbeliever.

My goal is merely to plant seeds. Get them to a point that transcends their programmed deflections. I look forward to you helping me in this regard.
 
He is the only one that can fill that God shaped hole inside of of us.

Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:19-20

Because of that, gospel tracks are so effective. I always use them when I'm Street Evangelizing.
 
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