Puzzle Re Gal 5:11

[mikesw]

I wrote a long explanation of Gal 5:11 regarding its grammar, an alternative word for "scandal," and a better way of understanding the main points of the verse. Upon reexamination of my paper, I realized I failed to address a the relevance of a substantial error of logic. This error is not in Paul's thinking but might be thought to be if you are not careful.
The puzzle left for people in the forum is to identify what logical statement could be recognized as being weak or in error. It might be easier just to say that something in the verse does not make total sense when you think about the meaning more carefully.

If no one identifies the error, I will likely explain it in the future. If anyone wants the explanation to be held off longer, type that in here too -- even if you are just starting to think about the verse. Maybe I can add a hint before sharing the actual logic error.

 

[mikesw]

Did anyone get to consider the verse in light of a possible oddity within in?

For understanding the grammatical structure better, I present the following:
Buf if I, brothers, still am preaching circumcisions ( why then am I still being persecuted?), then the stumbling block of the cross is removed.

 

[mikesw]

The problem begins with the gentiles' expectation that Paul's preaching of circumcision would put an end to persecution of him. Paul writes this verse to indicate to them that their own knowledge about his persecution is the evidence they have that proves he is not preaching circumcision.

The illogical or inconsistent aspect is that Paul's preaching of circumcision would not stop Paul from being persecuted for actions like his close associations with gentiles or his preaching of Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecutors had many triggers beyond just the issue of circumcision.

Does this make sense now? Are there any objections?

 

[Complete]

'Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision;
but faith which worketh by love.
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
This persuasion cometh not of Him that calleth you.
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
I have confidence in you through the Lord,
that ye will be none otherwise minded:
but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution?
then is the offence of the cross ceased.
I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty;
only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh,
but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But if ye bite and devour one another,
take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.'
(Gal 5:1-15)

Hello @mikesaw,

If Paul was preaching circumcision, there would be no persecution, for the cross would cease to offend.

'And ye are complete in Him,
which is the head of all principality and power:
In Whom also ye are circumcised
with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh
by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with Him in baptism,
wherein also ye are risen with Him
through the faith of the operation of God,
Who hath raised Him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins
and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath He quickened together with Him,
having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us,
and took it out of the way,
nailing it to His cross;
And having spoiled principalities and powers,
He made a shew of them openly,
triumphing over them in it.'
(Col 2:10-15)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mikesw]

So we can recognize that Paul could preach about the Messiah and still get persecuted without saying anything for or against circumcision. If Paul said the argument of 5:11 in a general situation, people would say "Couldn't you be persecuted just for preaching Jesus as the Messiah?" So Paul's argument would normally fail? How come Paul saw it as convincing to the Galatian gentiles?

 

[Complete]

So we can recognize that Paul could preach about the Messiah and still get persecuted without saying anything for or against circumcision. If Paul said the argument of 5:11 in a general situation, people would say "Couldn't you be persecuted just for preaching Jesus as the Messiah?" So Paul's argument would normally fail? How come Paul saw it as convincing to the Galatian gentiles?

'Behold, I Paul say unto you,
that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit
wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.'
(Gal 5:2)

Hi @mikesw,

Paul is seeking to show that he is also subject to the same pressure from those who desire that the Galatians should place themselves under law, and points out that he himself would be released from that pressure if he acceded to their demands, but he did not and would not, for the reasons given.

Preaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah is not the issue at this time , but pressure to place oneself under law is. That is what Paul is addressing.

thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mikesw]

'Behold, I Paul say unto you,
that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.
For we through the Spirit
wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.'
(Gal 5:2)

Hi @mikesw,

Paul is seeking to show that he is also subject to the same pressure from those who desire that the Galatians should place themselves under law, and points out that he himself would be released from that pressure if he acceded to their demands, but he did not and would not, for the reasons given.

Preaching that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Messiah is not the issue at this time , but pressure to place oneself under law is. That is what Paul is addressing.

thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You have given an answer I would expect to be normal here. The logic still is a problem since Paul could not convince the Galatians that circumcision is the only reason for persecution. That would be a lousy type of evidence for Paul to use to show he is not preaching circumcision. It could lead to distrust of Paul's overall sensibility.

 

[jeremiah1five]

11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal. 5:11.

There is no error. Saul describes the persecution he receives because he preaches Israel's Messiah being hung on a tre, a stumbling stone to the Jews who couldn't reconcile their Messiah died in such a way, a way which under the Lawe is a curse upon the person who dies on a tree.

Saul, as Christian was still obedient to the Law of Moses and was commended by others for his righteous living under the Law. As with all the Jewish Christians whom the Lord saved into His Church were all zealous and obedient to the Law still. And God was pleased. That's what a Biblical Christians was. It was a Jew who was born-again and baptized into the body of Christ who was now able through the Spirit able to obey every precept and command of the Law. And if they fell short, the grace of God held them up even after falling beyond seven times as long as he got right back up.

 

[Complete]

You have given an answer I would expect to be normal here. The logic still is a problem since Paul could not convince the Galatians that circumcision is the only reason for persecution. That would be a lousy type of evidence for Paul to use to show he is not No, circumcision. It could lead to distrust of Paul's overall sensibility.

'And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision,
why do I yet suffer persecution?
then is the offence of the cross ceased.'
(Gal 5:11)

Hello @mikesw,

No, Paul did not preach circumcision, which was why he was suffering persecution at the hands of those who did.. He suffered persecution for other reasons too, but in this context it was circumcision that was the issue.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[mikesw]

'And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision,
why do I yet suffer persecution?
then is the offence of the cross ceased.'
(Gal 5:11)

Hello @mikesw,

No, Paul did not preach circumcision, which was why he was suffering persecution at the hands of those who did.. He suffered persecution for other reasons too, but in this context it was circumcision that was the issue.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Of course Paul did not preach circumcision. The agitators lied when they claimed that Paul preached that. Their effort was to make it seem like Paul promoted circumcision such that the gentiles would follow that lie. I'm helping to recreate the context of the verse. However, I have found a major problem with my paper and was in the process of correcting it. The problem is that Paul has real persecutors whereas the ones described in this verse are not real, since they are ones only interested in persecution. The consequence of this finding is that Paul is that Paul only describes motives of these unreal persecutors in the scenario given by the agitators. I am not suggesting Paul was preaching circumcision. I am just explaining the logic of what Paul was saying and the context in which he presents this verse.