Only the Apostles were Predestined

[charismaticlady]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

 

[DavidTree]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

The Lord Jesus Christ the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit do not agree with your presupposition.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2

Brothers who are beloved by God, we know that He has chosen you, - 1 Thess 1:4

oops, i forgot to mention that God the FATHER does not agree with your presupposition either

 

[Fred]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Ephesians 1:1-6
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heaven, in Christ,
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blamelss before Him in love,
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Nope.

“Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” - Romans 8:26-30 [ESV]

Unless only the “apostles” are called, justified and glorified. (In which case WE are not part of the church, only the Apostles are.)

 

[Dizerner]

Yeah, no.

 

[DavidTree]

Yeah, no.

ok i get

 

[charismaticlady]

The Lord Jesus Christ the Apostle Peter, the Apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit do not agree with your presupposition.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Peter 1:2

Brothers who are beloved by God, we know that He has chosen you, - 1 Thess 1:4

oops, i forgot to mention that God the FATHER does not agree with your presupposition either

Ephesians 1 before verse 13 is Paul's apology of the apostles. Verse 13 says "you also believed" speaking then of the Ephesians.

 

[DavidTree]

Ephesians 1 before verse 13 is Paul's apology of the apostles. Verse 13 says "you also believed" speaking then of the Ephesians.

My Sister in Christ

JESUS is for us and HE will help us for HE has given us the Holy Spirit of Truth

i now must retire for a good night's rest

SHALOM to you in the Lord Jesus Christ

 

[charismaticlady]

Ephesians 1:1-6
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints who are at Ephesus and to the faithful in Christ Jesus
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heaven, in Christ,
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blamelss before Him in love,
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Paul has broken down Ephesians 1.
1-3 is his greeting to who he is writing to.
4-12 is introducing who he is and his authority
13 back to the Ephesians.

It is clear as day.

 

[DavidTree]

Paul has broken down Ephesians 1.
1-3 is his greeting to who he is writing to.
4-12 is introducing who he is and his authority
13 back to the Ephesians.

It is clear as day.

the us , the we the us = Blood Washed Saints at Ephesus

 

[civic]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

I have a thread on this very topic

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ,might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed,you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. Thet were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is writing to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

Thread 'Ephesians 1 the most abused passage by Calvinists'

Aug 2, 2023

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it...

• civic
• Replies: 48
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 

 

[charismaticlady]

I have a thread on this very topic

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it applies to the Apostles who were given the knowledge, wisdom, the mysteries revealed to them by ejection / predestination not the gentiles in Ephesus.

Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To God’s holy people in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ,might be for the praise of his glory.

( Now Paul goes from we the apostles to them the gentile Ephesians. The apostles were the first to believe with wisdom from God and not prays for them to have the same wisdom they have)


13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed,you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. 17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

conclusion: the predestined group ( Jewish Apostles ) were the first to believe and were given all wisdom, understanding knowing the mystery of His will. The gentiles ( you, them ) were not the first to believe until way later after Paul was sent to them after Acts 13. Thet were prayed for by Paul as a group to be blesses with wisdom, knowledge, enlightenment so they may know ( they did not know at that time) and did not know the mysteries like the group in 1:3-12. Paul is making the distinction between the Apostles and who he is writing to like he does in most of his other letters in the introduction of this letter.

Thread 'Ephesians 1 the most abused passage by Calvinists'

Aug 2, 2023

Paul makes the distinction with 2 groups below and contrasts them.

The Jews who were Apostles ( we, us , our )who first believed and were the ones predestined / chosen and with the gentiles ( you ) who believed after, later in verses 13 and beyond. They gentiles did not have the wisdom , knowledge and the mysteries were revealed to the Apostles not the gentiles. Paul is teaching them those mysteries in this letter and educating them. This passage refutes Calvinism it does not support it whatsoever. Only if one uses eisegesis can verses 1-12 be applied to a Calvinist. Exegetically it...

• civic
• Replies: 48
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 

Yes, it is clear as day when you don't let your doctrine be that of human reasoning. The apostles were Hebrew and used Semitic styles of writing. Do you understand how John used key words in his writings?

 

[DavidTree]

Yes, it is clear as day when you don't let your doctrine be that of human reasoning. The apostles were Hebrew and used Semitic styles of writing. Do you understand how John used key words in his writings?

@civic

the doctrine of human error is to divide and claim that the apostles were the only ones chosen by God

Crystal CLEAR that the Holy Spirit, that includes every Blood Washed Saint as "His Elect" and "Chosen in Him"

@civic and yourself claim that "we" and "you" are two distinct groups of Saints which is human conjecture

Here the Holy Spirit ties TOGETHER the "we" and "us" to "you" and "yourselves" and "anyone"
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Crystal CLEAR = we = us = you = yourselves = anyone

 

[civic]

@civic

the doctrine of human error is to divide and claim that the apostles were the only ones chosen by God

Crystal CLEAR that the Holy Spirit, that includes every Blood Washed Saint as "His Elect" and "Chosen in Him"

@civic and yourself claim that "we" and "you" are two distinct groups of Saints which is human conjecture

Here the Holy Spirit ties TOGETHER the "we" and "us" to "you" and "anyone"
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Did you happen to read through my post ?

 

[DavidTree]

Did you happen to read through my post ?

YES, and i AGREE with your "time lapse" between the first chosen group which includes more then the apostles and then later the Gentiles who were/are included.

There were 120 disciples of Christ waiting for the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
All 120 Received the HS = first group "we" "us"

PLUS an additional 3,000 were saved at that very moment of "hearing" = John 6:35-47 which began, not only with the 12 but with all the disciples added to CHRIST as HE walked on this earth, continued to take Place in Acts ch2 and Forward

the lady thinks it was only the 12

 

[charismaticlady]

YES, and i AGREE with your "time lapse" between the first chosen group which includes more then the apostles and then later the Gentiles who were/are included.

There were 120 disciples of Christ waiting for the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
All 120 Received the HS = first group "we" "us"

PLUS an additional 3,000 were saved at that very moment of "hearing" = John 6:35-47 which began, not only with the 12 but with all the disciples added to CHRIST as HE walked on this earth, continued to take Place in Acts ch2 and Forward

the lady thinks it was only the 12

Here is John 17 from the OP.
cc: @civic

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Jesus Prays for All Believers​

20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Jesus Concludes Praying for His Disciples​

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

 

[DavidTree]

Here is John 17 from the OP.
cc: @civic

Jesus Prays for His Disciples​

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Jesus Prays for All Believers​

20 I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Jesus Concludes Praying for His Disciples​

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

1.) How many disciples?
2.) Is chapter 17 the only Truth that JESUS Spoke at that time and was it for the Jews only, including today?
3.) Is JESUS Prayer for all whom the FATHER gives to Him?
4.) Did the FATHER stop giving disciples to JESUS?
5.) Does JESUS pray for people today? If Yes, then who exactly? and if No, then why exactly?
6.) Who is John 17:1-3 being addressed to and has it expired?
7 - Did JESUS say anything in John 17 that signifies that this Prayer is continual?

 

[charismaticlady]

1.) How many disciples?
2.) Is chapter 17 the only Truth that JESUS Spoke at that time and was it for the Jews only?
3.) Is JESUS Prayer for all whom the FATHER gives to Him?
4.) Did the FATHER stop giving disciples to JESUS?
5.) Does JESUS pray for people today? If Yes, then who exactly? and if No, then why exactly?
6.) Who is John 17:1-3 being addressed to?
7 - Did JESUS say anything in John 17 that signifies that this Prayer is continual?

All 12 including Paul.
Verses 1-3 is starting his prayer for the Apostles and also for Himself.
Verses 6-19, 24+ are for the Apostles
Verses 20-23 are for all of us who believed the Apostles testimony.

In John 6 and 10 there are popular verses Calvinists like to use that we cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand. Again those are the Apostles with a capital "A". They are who the Father gave to the Son.

Note in heaven the 12 foundations with the names of the 12 Apostles.

 

[DavidTree]

All 12 including Paul.
Verses 1-3 is starting his prayer for the Apostles and also for Himself.
Verses 6-19, 24+ are for the Apostles
Verses 20-23 are for all of us who believed the Apostles testimony.

In John 6 and 10 there are popular verses Calvinists like to use that we cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand. Again those are the Apostles with a capital "A". They are who the Father gave to the Son.

Note in heaven the 12 foundations with the names of the 12 Apostles.

How is it that you include Paul in John ch17? for you said it was only for the first group/apostles

After you explain this i will, together with you, explore further in the Scriptures for our benefit and all Glory to the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Selah]

Ephesians 1-12 shows that those who first believed were predestined. They are the apostles.

Then in John 17 we see that in Jesus' prayer for the Apostles, those the Father gives to the Son were the apostles.

In John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

Another misused verse is in John 10. Here again it is the Father giving to the Son, thus referring to the Apostles.
John 20:28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

We are those who believed their words, but not predestined as the Apostles were.

The book of Ephesians is written to the saints and faithful in Christ Jesus—faithful children of God who are followers of Christ. Saints are consecrated or set aside individuals who have been chosen before the foundation of the world.