Jan Markel Interviews Mike on the New World Order

To me, both sides have James 2:24 wrong. Protestants jettison the word "works" from James 2:24 and Catholics add their treasury of merit to James 2:24.
 
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To me, both sides have James 2:24 wrong. Protestants jettison the word "works" from James 2:24 and Catholics add their treasury of merit to James 2:24.
Brother-lately I hear that James in not inspired.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"for good works"

Believers' lifestyles after they meet Christ are an evidence of their salvation (cf. James and 1 John). They are saved by grace through faith unto works! They are saved to serve! Faith without works is dead, as are works without faith (cf. Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26). Salvation is a gate and a way/road. The goal of the Father's choice is that believers be "holy and blameless" (cf. Eph. 1:4).

Paul was often attacked for his radically free gospel because it seemed to encourage godless living. A gospel so seemingly unconnected to moral performance must lead to abuse. Paul's gospel was free in the grace of God, but it also demanded an appropriate response, not only in initial repentance, but in ongoing repentance. Godly living is the result, not lawlessness.

Good works are not the mechanism of salvation, but the result. This paradox of a completely free salvation and a cost-everything response is difficult to communicate, but the two must be held in a tension-filled balance.

American individualism has distorted the gospel. Humans are not saved because God loves them so much individually, but because God loves fallen mankind, mankind made in His image. He saves and changes individuals to reach more individuals. The ultimate focus of love is primarily corporate (cf. John 3:16), but it is received individually (cf. John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13; 1 Cor. 15:1).

I have much more information but don't want to flood this Forum, out of respect for our @Administrator

God bless

Jud_1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.




Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

J.

 
Brother-lately I hear that James in not inspired.
That which you hear are people who will attack the inspiration of any Epistle or any verse that does not fit into their way of thinking.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

"for good works"
Couple of things here. First, Paul differentiates works (which are works of the law) and good works. So Eph 2:9 is not addressing good works at that moment. Second, Eph 2:10 is the verse that does talk about good works and it's at the moment of our "creation" that we are to walk in good works. In other words, let's say a Hindu person creates an orphanage in India for destitute children. Should we automatically reject that charity?
Believers' lifestyles after they meet Christ are an evidence of their salvation (cf. James and 1 John). They are saved by grace through faith unto works! They are saved to serve! Faith without works is dead, as are works without faith (cf. Matt. 7:21-23 and James 2:14-26). Salvation is a gate and a way/road. The goal of the Father's choice is that believers be "holy and blameless" (cf. Eph. 1:4).
Indeed faith with works is dead which proves James 2:24.
Paul was often attacked for his radically free gospel because it seemed to encourage godless living. A gospel so seemingly unconnected to moral performance must lead to abuse. Paul's gospel was free in the grace of God, but it also demanded an appropriate response, not only in initial repentance, but in ongoing repentance. Godly living is the result, not lawlessness.
Somehow the attackers never heard or read Rom 2:5-8 where Paul associates good works with eternal life.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Good works are not the mechanism of salvation, but the result. This paradox of a completely free salvation and a cost-everything response is difficult to communicate, but the two must be held in a tension-filled balance.
I know of no one who is a Sola Works proponent. I am a Justified by Faith and Good Works (James 2:24) proponent.
American individualism has distorted the gospel. Humans are not saved because God loves them so much individually, but because God loves fallen mankind, mankind made in His image. He saves and changes individuals to reach more individuals. The ultimate focus of love is primarily corporate (cf. John 3:16), but it is received individually (cf. John 1:12; Romans 10:9-13; 1 Cor. 15:1).

I have much more information but don't want to flood this Forum, out of respect for our @Administrator

God bless
This is nevertheless a critical topic. Could you summarize the high points of whatever else you want to present?
Jud_1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

J.
Indeed, we should all guard against those who attack the inspiration of any Epistle in the Bible. If we don’t then its a pendora's box situation that we will find ourselves in.

Here is an excellent presentation by @dizerner on this topic:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/are-arminians-works-salvationists.175/
 
Couple of things here. First, Paul differentiates works (which are works of the law) and good works. So Eph 2:9 has no bearing on good works. Second, Eph 2:10 is the verse that does talk about good works and it's at the moment of our "creation" that we are to walk in good works. In other words, let's say a Hindu person creates an orphanage in India for destitute children. Should we automatically reject that charity?
Brother-I think what was posted was pretty self explanatory-and we are on the same page-hopefully.

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


1) "Not of works" (ouk eks ergon) "Not out of works." Man's salvation from death and hell does not have its source in moral, ceremonial, ethical, or religious deeds, or human energies, Rom_11:6.

2) "Lest any man should boast" (hina me tis kauchesetai) "in order that not anyone should (have occasion to) boast." Boasting or occasion for self-glory in salvation is excluded by the law or principle of faith, which is itself the gift of God, Heb_11:6; 1Co_13:13; Joh_1:11-12; Rom_3:27; Gal_6:14.

Workmanship (poiēma). Old word from poieō with the ending ̇mat meaning result. In N.T. only here and Rev_1:20.

Created (ktisthentes). First aorist passive participle of ktizō, not the original creation as in Col_1:16; Eph_3:9, but the moral and spiritual renewal in Christ, the new birth, as in Eph_2:15; Eph_4:24.

For good works (epi ergois agathois). Probably the true dative of purpose here with epi (Robertson, Grammar, p. 605). Purpose of the new creation in Christ.
Which (hois). Attraction of the relative ha (accusative after proētoimasen) to case of the antecedent ergois.

Afore prepared (proētoimasen). First aorist active indicative of proētoimazō, old verb to make ready beforehand. In N.T. only here and Rom_9:23. Good works by us were included in the eternal foreordination by God.

That we should walk in them (hina en autois peripatēsōmen). Expexegetic final clause explanatory of the election to good works.

As I share this-Matthew 25 immediately comes to mind.

On what are we going to to give an account of before Christ?

Would you say a Christian can be completely passive-no need to do anything?

J.


 
Brother-I think what was posted was pretty self explanatory-and we are on the same page-hopefully.

Col 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
Col 1:10 so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Col 3:14 And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.


1) "Not of works" (ouk eks ergon) "Not out of works." Man's salvation from death and hell does not have its source in moral, ceremonial, ethical, or religious deeds, or human energies, Rom_11:6.

2) "Lest any man should boast" (hina me tis kauchesetai) "in order that not anyone should (have occasion to) boast." Boasting or occasion for self-glory in salvation is excluded by the law or principle of faith, which is itself the gift of God, Heb_11:6; 1Co_13:13; Joh_1:11-12; Rom_3:27; Gal_6:14.

Workmanship (poiēma). Old word from poieō with the ending ̇mat meaning result. In N.T. only here and Rev_1:20.

Created (ktisthentes). First aorist passive participle of ktizō, not the original creation as in Col_1:16; Eph_3:9, but the moral and spiritual renewal in Christ, the new birth, as in Eph_2:15; Eph_4:24.

For good works (epi ergois agathois). Probably the true dative of purpose here with epi (Robertson, Grammar, p. 605). Purpose of the new creation in Christ.
Which (hois). Attraction of the relative ha (accusative after proētoimasen) to case of the antecedent ergois.

Afore prepared (proētoimasen). First aorist active indicative of proētoimazō, old verb to make ready beforehand. In N.T. only here and Rom_9:23. Good works by us were included in the eternal foreordination by God.

That we should walk in them (hina en autois peripatēsōmen). Expexegetic final clause explanatory of the election to good works.

As I share this-Matthew 25
immediately comes to mind.

On what are we going to to give an account of before Christ?

Would you say a Christian can be completely passive-no need to do anything?

J.
I think we are on the same page. The litmus test is James 2:24.

As for the New World Order, I'm speculating that the Western Nations along with the Vatican is the King of the North of Daniel 11. I'm not so sure who is the King of the South.
 
I think we are on the same page. The litmus test is James 2:24.

As for the New World Order, I'm speculating that the Western Nations along with the Vatican is the King of the North of Daniel 11. I'm not so sure who is the King of the South.
Eschatology is not my strong point.

I love your litmus test per James
And not only by faith (kai ouk ek pisteōs monon). This phrase clears up the meaning of James. Faith (live faith) is what we must all have (Jas_2:18), only it must shew itself also in deeds as Abraham’s did.

Jas 2:24 You see then, how a man by his deeds becomes righteous, and not by faith only

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is shown to be upright by his good deeds, and not merely by his faith.

Jas 2:24 24-25 A man is justified before God by what he does as well as by what he believes.


Jas 2:24 You see that from Ma'asim [of Emunah] a man is YITZDAK IM HASHEM and not from [sterilely unpartnered] “Emunah” alone. [i.e., mere intellectual assent]




The Christian Life

How, then, should Christians behave? Someone rightly said, “Christians are not perfect, they are forgiven.” Christians no longer live for themselves, but for God (2 Corinthians 5:14-15). They are not saved by doing good works, but do good works because they are saved (Ephesians 2:8-10)!

A Christian obeys God out of love (John 14:21, 23). Love grows through contact. You cannot love a person you do not know. When you get to know Jesus, you can only love him for who and what he is, or hate Him for the same reason, if you refuse to obey Him.

To love God means to love Jesus; to love Jesus means to love God (1 John 2:22-23) and to love people, especially fellow believers. As Jesus said,

“A new commandment I give you: Love one another.
As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
All men will know that you are My disciples if you love one another” (John 13:34-35).

The Christian's love to God and to his fellow man, even his enemy, becomes visible in caring for others. Read the parable of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10:25-37.

When Christ becomes the Lord of your life, every aspect of your life comes under His control: your household, your words, your music, everything. Read for example Colossians 3:1-4:6 and make a list of the instructions. If you examine what you find, you will see that it is a summary of a happy life.


Jesus summarized the Christian life in one word: Love (Matthew 22:35-40). Which led the Christian leader Augustine to formulate this rule of thumb: “Love God: and do what you like!” because if you love God, you will try to do only that which will please Him.

Since we are human, total perfection will not be attained in this life, although Christians strive towards this. Therefore God has opened a way to daily forgiveness to remedy our failures (1 John 1:5-10; Proverbs 28:13).

God bless brother.

I like the "new look" of this Forum.
J.
 
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Alexander the Great and Epiphanies is who I think they were.
Historically speaking, you could be correct.

When you go into Dan 12, it seems that it's futuristic when it says, "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life". Is there a future king of the north and a future king of the south?
 
Historically speaking, you could be correct.

When you go into Dan 12, it seems that it's futuristic when it says, "those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life". Is there a future king of the north and a future king of the south?
Yes there is a double fulfillment
 
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