Harpadzo/rapiemur/rapture

[SteveB]

Hi all.
This is for those who want to leave a message for those who didn't go in the rapture.

Jack Hibbs, pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, has put together a message, akin to the message of the fictional character, Pastor Billings, in the Left Behind movie.

Jack is saying they're going to get a bunch of flash drives so we can have them available for people who are left behind, so they can be prepared for what is to come.

This is not something I'm interested in debating on the timing about.

This is merely a resource to give you so you can give to your unbelieving friends, family and relatives, neighbors, etc....

 

[TomL]

Hi all.
This is for those who want to leave a message for those who didn't go in the rapture.



Jack Hibbs, pastor of Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, has put together a message, akin to the message of the fictional character, Pastor Billings, in the Left Behind movie.

Jack is saying they're going to get a bunch of flash drives so we can have them available for people who are left behind, so they can be prepared for what is to come.

This is not something I'm interested in debating on the timing about.

This is merely a resource to give you so you can give to your unbelieving friends, family and relatives, neighbors, etc....

There is no secret pretrib rapture differentiated from the second coming

 

[SteveB]

There is no secret pretrib rapture differentiated from the second coming

Keep telling yourself that Tom.
At this point, it's quite clear that you're imposing ideas that others told you, without actually taking the time to learn what's actually going on.

I further stated in my op that I didn't post this to argue about.
It's merely for people who want to leave an explanation behind for those who remain and are left behind.

So, if you really want to argue about it-- post your own op.

 

[SteveB]

This seems a fitting text for the issue as well.

After the Rapture: An End Times Guide to Survival https://a.co/d/d8djtPu

 

[TomL]

Keep telling yourself that Tom.
At this point, it's quite clear that you're imposing ideas that others told you, without actually taking the time to learn what's actually going on.

I further stated in my op that I didn't post this to argue about.
It's merely for people who want to leave an explanation behind for those who remain and are left behind.

So, if you really want to argue about it-- post your own op.

LOL

If there were any truth in your claim you would have backed it with scripture,

but you did not because you can not.

 

[SteveB]

LOL

If there were any truth in your claim you would have backed it with scripture,

but you did not because you can not.

Oh, you mean like...
Genesis 18
Luke 21:34-36
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 5:1-9
Titus 2:11-14
Isaiah 26:19-21
Revelation 2:18-29, 3:7-13

My questions become...

Why is it that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4, we will meet Him in the air, and ever be with the Lord, yet the second coming is when Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives - Zechariah 14:4.

Why does Jesus give us warning to diligently seek to escape what's coming on the earth, if he raptures the church immediately before he returns to the earth?

Why would he warn us at all? According to your ideas (which you clearly got from others), it's merely a matter of moments between the rapture and the second coming.
What difference do moments make there?

Why would God make a distinction between the righteous and the wicked, if there’s nothing to gain from it?

As Joshua alludes, using the warning of Jesus...

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


Jesus gives us the wherewithal to successfully engage him, and escape a period of human experience which he describes in Matthew as the worst period of human history. As such, why anyone who claims to follow him would take away the hope of Grace's teaching:
Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.




You do as you want.
As for me, and my household, we will do exactly as Jesus said.....

Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

And I will encourage others to do likewise!

To pray always, to be always watchful, diligent that we may be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man!

 

[TomL]

Oh, you mean like...
Genesis 18
Luke 21:34-36
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 5:1-9
Titus 2:11-14
Isaiah 26:19-21
Revelation 2:18-29, 3:7-13

My questions become...

Why is it that Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4, we will meet Him in the air, and ever be with the Lord, yet the second coming is when Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives - Zechariah 14:4.

Why does Jesus give us warning to diligently seek to escape what's coming on the earth, if he raptures the church immediately before he returns to the earth?

Why would he warn us at all? According to your ideas (which you clearly got from others), it's merely a matter of moments between the rapture and the second coming.
What difference do moments make there?

Why would God make a distinction between the righteous and the wicked, if there’s nothing to gain from it?

As Joshua alludes, using the warning of Jesus...

Luk 21:34-36 WEB 34 “So be careful, or your hearts will be loaded down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day will come on you suddenly. 35 For it will come like a snare on all those who dwell on the surface of all the earth. 36 Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”


Jesus gives us the wherewithal to successfully engage him, and escape a period of human experience which he describes in Matthew as the worst period of human history. As such, why anyone who claims to follow him would take away the hope of Grace's teaching:
Tit 2:11-15 WEB 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age; 13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good works. 15 Say these things and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one despise you.




You do as you want.
As for me, and my household, we will do exactly as Jesus said.....

Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

And I will encourage others to do likewise!

To pray always, to be always watchful, diligent that we may be accounted worthy to escape what's coming on the earth and to stand before the Son of Man!

Not one speaks of a secret pre trib rapture

Rather the dead are raised up and the living are caught up at the lord's coming

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (ESV) — 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[SteveB]

Not one speaks of a secret pre trib rapture

Well, if you're looking for the phrase- secret pre-trib rapture, nope.
I never said anything about a secret pre-trib rapture.

Rather the dead are raised up and the living are caught up at the lord's coming

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (ESV) — 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The moment that Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonian Jesus followers, it ceased being a secret.
Had Paul not written that letter and had it delivered, it would have been a secret.

He however was more interested in making sure that the followers of Jesus were able to ready themselves to be harpadzo'd.

And since we now have 1982-1960 years of documented history of the harpadzo, it's long since ceased being secret.

So, whatever you think is secret, you were lied to.
It's not a secret harpadzo.
It's long been known to everyone who reads the Bible.

As such, what's your point?

Remember.... it's not a secret.


That said...

Everyone who is following Jesus, and whom Jesus deigns to be ready ( Luke 21:34-36, Matthew 25:1-13), we're going to be taken. Harpadzo!
Like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10
Translated, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

And this includes you too. As long as you're diligent in your walk with Jesus, and busy about his business, seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness....
When we go, you'll go.

 

[TomL]

Well, if you're looking for the phrase- secret pre-trib rapture, nope.
I never said anything about a secret pre-trib rapture.



The moment that Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonian Jesus followers, it ceased being a secret.
Had Paul not written that letter and had it delivered, it would have been a secret.

He however was more interested in making sure that the followers of Jesus were able to ready themselves to be harpadzo'd.

And since we now have 1982-1960 years of documented history of the harpadzo, it's long since ceased being secret.

So, whatever you think is secret, you were lied to.
It's not a secret harpadzo.
It's long been known to everyone who reads the Bible.

As such, what's your point?

Remember.... it's not a secret.


That said...

Everyone who is following Jesus, and whom Jesus deigns to be ready ( Luke 21:34-36, Matthew 25:1-13), we're going to be taken. Harpadzo!
Like a thief in the night. Matthew 24:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10
Translated, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

And this includes you too. As long as you're diligent in your walk with Jesus, and busy about his business, seeking the Kingdom of God and His righteousness....
When we go, you'll go.

Its at the second coming

 

[SteveB]

Its at the second coming

Then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

You'll live through the worst period of human experience, which Jesus clearly states- it's possible to escape- and based on Revelation, during this period, millions of Christ followers will perish at the hands of the antichrist regime.

So, if you'll excuse me, I need to continue engaging Jesus, and preparing to escape what's coming on the earth so I may be accounted worthy to escape what's coming and to stand before the Son of Man.

Ciao.

 

[TomL]

Then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

You'll live through the worst period of human experience, which Jesus clearly states- it's possible to escape- and based on Revelation, during this period, millions of Christ followers will perish at the hands of the antichrist regime.

So, if you'll excuse me, I need to continue engaging Jesus, and preparing to escape what's coming on the earth so I may be accounted worthy to escape what's coming and to stand before the Son of Man.

Ciao.

There is but one mention of the rapture it happens at the second coming when the dead are raised

 

[SteveB]

There is but one mention of the rapture it happens at the second coming when the dead are raised

There's only one mention to people who lack the ability to understand what the bible says.

 

[TomL]

There's only one mention to people who lack the ability to understand what the bible says.

You have not shown otherwise

 

[SteveB]

You have not shown otherwise

Actually I have. Repeatedly.
You however have repeatedly demonstrated a strong penchant and tendency to be incapable of listening.
It's actually why I stated this op wasn't for arguing.
The fact that you are still talking about this is further evidence you don't actually understand.

 

[TomL]

Actually I have. Repeatedly.
You however have repeatedly demonstrated a strong penchant and tendency to be incapable of listening.
It's actually why I stated this op wasn't for arguing.
The fact that you are still talking about this is further evidence you don't actually understand.

If you want any to believe you it might be a good idea to provide a URL

This places the catching up at the second advent of Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

There is no mention of a pretrib event seven years before the coming of Christ

and it is at the raising of the dead

 

[SteveB]

If you want any to believe you it might be a good idea to provide a URL

I did.

This places the catching up at the second advent of Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 (NASB 2020) — 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

There is no mention of a pretrib event seven years before the coming of Christ

Actually it is.
Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24, Luke 21, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9.

and it is at the raising of the dead

The raising of the godly dead.
Not those who are ungodly. The raising of the ungodly dead occurs at the end of the millennial reign. Revelation 20:10-15.

 

[TomL]

I did.

Actually it is.
Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24, Luke 21, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:9.


The raising of the godly dead.
Not those who are ungodly. The raising of the ungodly dead occurs at the end of the millennial reign. Revelation 20:10-15.

Sorry there is no mention of rapture at

Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24, Luke 21

You are reading that into scripture


If you read Mat 24 and Luke 21 you will see the setting concerns Old Testament Israel

and 1Thess places the catching up at the coming of Christ not seven years previous to it in a pretrib rapture

 

[SteveB]

Sorry there is no mention of rapture at

Daniel 9:24-27, Matthew 24, Luke 21

That is your opinion.

You are reading that into scripture

Nope.

If you read Mat 24 and Luke 21 you will see the setting concerns Old Testament Israel

And?
You don't see anything for the body of Christ in those passages?

and 1Thess places the catching up at the coming of Christ not seven years previous to it in a pretrib rapture

Sounds like you're still stuck on the secret part, which ceased being secret the moment it was written about and published for its readers to read.

 

[TomL]

That is your opinion.

Nope.

And?
You don't see anything for the body of Christ in those passages?

Sounds like you're still stuck on the secret part, which ceased being secret the moment it was written about and published for its readers to read.

If you think so then demonstrate Mat 24 and Luke 21 teaches a rapture of the church and is not dealing with Israel

Show where the term rapture is mentioned and it takes men to be with christ while they are in a living state previous to some future great tribulation

BTW show why the elect are spoken of at Mat 24:18-22 and not removed from the earth and have to run to the hills

Matthew 24:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[SteveB]

If you think so then demonstrate Mat 24 and Luke 21 teaches a rapture of the church and is not dealing with Israel

Sounds like you've so completely compartmentalized the Bible that you have become blinded by your pride.

Show where the term rapture is mentioned and it takes men to be with christ while they are in a living state previous to some future great tribulation

As you wish.
1Th 4:17 Vulgate deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

granted, my question becomes...
can you actually read latin.
perhaps you can read Greek? If not, the word you're looking for is harpadzo.

1Th 4:17 OGNTa ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ Κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν Κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα.

[ -Mounce ἁρπάζω ]

ἁρπάζω
GK: 773

Strongs: G726

Lemma: ἁρπάζω

Transliteration: harpazō

Frequency Count: 14

Definition:

to seize, as a wild beast, Jn. 10:12; take away by force, snatch away, Mt. 13:19; Jn. 10:28; 29; Acts 23:10; Jude 23 5; met. to seize on with avidity, eagerly, appropriate, Mt. 11:12; to convey away suddenly, transport hastily, Jn. 6:15

BTW show why the elect are spoken of at Mat 24:18-22 and not removed from the earth and have to run to the hills

Matthew 24:18–22 (KJV 1900) — 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Why, are you afraid to focus on the truth?

The elect are Israel.
Zec 13:8 WEB It shall happen that in all the land,” says Yahweh, “two parts in it will be cut off and die; but the third will be left in it.

The third is the elect.

In fact, Paul discusses this in Romans 9-11.