From what position did Jesus Christ lower Himself?

[praise_yeshua]

I know this is often part of the discussion but I believe it deserves it's "own" thread.....

If Unitarians believe Christ made Himself lower than the angels.... Meaning, He was obviously higher than the angels....

Then I believe it is fair to ask you to describe from position He "lowered" Himself....? Please be specfic.

 

[civic]

Its interesting because in the Hebrew its Elohim ( God ) not the angels. So man was created lower than God although made in His image.

 

[101G]

there are only three entities, God, Angels and US humans.

but the Question should be asked is his NATURE. meaning "GOD". the next question, How is he God and still God while in flesh on earth in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state. but Spirit in Heaven at the same time.

101G.

 

[Diserner]

They usually say something like, just being born was lowering himself.

Of course to lower yourself you have to have been higher... logically.

 

[civic]

They usually say something like, just being born was lowering himself.

Of course to lower yourself you have to have been higher... logically.

and becoming a servant is lowering Himself and to die ( angels do not die )from His former Glory as He declares the restoration of that shared glory with the Father that was His before the creation, See John 17:5.

 

[civic]

nowhere in scripture do we read that angels when they sinned would die unlike man. so they are above man in that sense but the reverse is also true in that man was redeemable, not the angels. so in that sense they marvel at Gods redemption of man who was created in His image unlike the angels.

 

[praise_yeshua]

nowhere in scripture do we read that angels when they sinned would die unlike man. so they are above man in that sense but the reverse is also true in that man was redeemable, not the angels. so in that sense they marvel at Gods redemption of man who was created in His image unlike the angels.

I have some thoughts along this line if "y'all" won't laugh at me....

 

[Rockson]

there are only three entities, God, Angels and US humans.

but the Question should be asked is his NATURE. meaning "GOD". the next question, How is he God and still God while in flesh on earth in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state. but Spirit in Heaven at the same time.

101G.

I'm smiling as I read this because it really comes down to being an unanswerable question. When Jesus said he came down from ABOVE I just believe that and accept that. As for me I don't try to figure out some things, like with modern Tech things .

How does the inward parts of a computer work, or a telephone, microwave, car and the list can go on and on. Ah I'm not going to try to figure it out. But one thing we do know Jesus came down from ABOVE. Jn 3:31 Some things we've just got to run with accepting it or as some would say it's above our pay grade to figure out.

 

[APAK]

I know this is often part of the discussion but I believe it deserves it's "own" thread.....

If Unitarians believe Christ made Himself lower than the angels.... Meaning, He was obviously higher than the angels....

Then I believe it is fair to ask you to describe from position He "lowered" Himself....? Please be specfic.

Scripture says that Christ (2nd and last Adam) was made lower than the angels and then of course lower than God or YHWH himself. He was made by his Father, YHWH himself, as also was the 1st Adam before him. So his (Christ) previous position was undefined or non-existent until he was begotten, was conceived and existed as the son of man with his Father's Spirit already in residence.

(Psa 8:1) O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory upon the heavens.
(Psa 8:2) Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established strength, because of thine adversaries, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
(Psa 8:3) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
(Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Psa 8:5) For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.
(Psa 8:6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
(RV)

(Heb 2:5) For not unto angels did he subject the world to come, whereof we speak.
(Heb 2:6) But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Heb 2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(Heb 2:8) Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
(Heb 2:9) But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour, that by the grace of God he should taste death for every man.
(RV)

 

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture says that Christ (2nd and last Adam) was made lower than the angels and then of course lower than God or YHWH himself. He was made by his Father, YHWH himself, as also was the 1st Adam before him. So his (Christ) previous position was undefined or non-existent until he was begotten, was conceived and existed as the son of man with his Father's Spirit already in residence.

(Psa 8:1) O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory upon the heavens.
(Psa 8:2) Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established strength, because of thine adversaries, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
(Psa 8:3) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
(Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Psa 8:5) For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.
(Psa 8:6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
(RV)

(Heb 2:5) For not unto angels did he subject the world to come, whereof we speak.
(Heb 2:6) But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Heb 2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(Heb 2:8) Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
(Heb 2:9) But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour, that by the grace of God he should taste death for every man.
(RV)

Okay. Then what about the claim of Christ that he was before Abraham?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Scripture says that Christ (2nd and last Adam) was made lower than the angels and then of course lower than God or YHWH himself. He was made by his Father, YHWH himself, as also was the 1st Adam before him. So his (Christ) previous position was undefined or non-existent until he was begotten, was conceived and existed as the son of man with his Father's Spirit already in residence.

(Psa 8:1) O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory upon the heavens.
(Psa 8:2) Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established strength, because of thine adversaries, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
(Psa 8:3) When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
(Psa 8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Psa 8:5) For thou hast made him but little lower than God, and crownest him with glory and honour.
(Psa 8:6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
(RV)

(Heb 2:5) For not unto angels did he subject the world to come, whereof we speak.
(Heb 2:6) But one hath somewhere testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? Or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(Heb 2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; Thou crownedst him with glory and honour, And didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(Heb 2:8) Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he subjected all things unto him, he left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we see not yet all things subjected to him.
(Heb 2:9) But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honour, that by the grace of God he should taste death for every man.
(RV)

Also, lowering indicates a previous state. You are denying a previous state.

 

[APAK]

Okay. Then what about the claim of Christ that he was before Abraham?

Changing bait I see....now on to John 8:58. You might get hooked yourself if you do not take care.

Abraham was told by God that Jesus would be the of Son of God and saviour of his people. Abraham rejoiced and could not wait for this event to occur.

And therefore Jesus could claim he was already in the mind of God before Abraham was born. He was planned to be the crucial cog of human salvation. And consequently he was more important that Abraham by far, who the Pharisees revered.

The Pharisees reacted in anger and ready to commit violence to the apparent claim that Jesus made, as being more important than their Father Abraham, as the Son of YHWH. This was too much for them to grasp. Jesus was speaking blasphemy into their ears.

Note: For those who are convinced they read into verse 58 and conclude that Jesus is calling himself YHWH at the expense of the glaring context and the discussion between Christ and the Pharisees they must know that the English translated words or expression 'I am' or 'I am he' in verse 58 is a common Greek expression used by all people as shown in other places of scripture. It should not be confused with a similar yet quite different Hebrew expression, used in Exodus and other places in the OT.

In fact the expression in Exodus is incorrectly translated. It should not be translated into English as 'I am.' It can be translated however as 'I am that or who I am' or I am what I will be.'

אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה ... אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִ אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃ (BHS)
I am who I am. . . . has sent me to you.
Ex 3:14 uses אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, ’eh·yeh ’ă·šer ’eh·yeh, in Hebrew

And lastly, there is no reason of any kind to capitalize the words 'I am' in verse John 8:58 except for ignorance, deception, intellectual dishonesty and or Trinity bias.

Now in Exodus 3:14 the expression 'I am who I am' can be capitalized to emphasize a description of YHWH. Although not the incorrect form of the 'I am' expression - used again to deceive and relate to John 8:58, as an example.

A little more background:

God YHWH identifies Himself with a name having four possible meanings, each one perfectly accurate.
"I am what I am";
"I am who I am";
"I will be what I will be";
"I will be who I will be";

The reason all four translations are accurate is that in Hebrew it not have a word for the present tense of the verb "to be." In other words, there is no Hebrew word for "am" or "is" or "are." Therefore, in order to say "I am Joseph," for example, one would say "Ani Joseph" ("I Joseph")." The absence of the present tense of "to be" is not unique to Hebrew; it is also true of Arabic and Russian, among other languages. So here, when God uses the future tense of the verb "to be," it literally means, "I will be."

.............................

 

[APAK]

Also, lowering indicates a previous state. You are denying a previous state.

Agreed, denying any actual previous state of being besides in the mind and planned future of YHWH.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Changing bait I see....now on to John 8:58. You might get hooked yourself if you do not take care.

Nope. You're the one that responded solely within the context of just a few years in the life of Jesus Christ. YOU were unduly limiting the conversation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And therefore Jesus could claim he was already in the mind of God before Abraham was born.

Well. Duh...... How could God not possibly know?

Jesus didn't use words that restrict the conclusion solely to an action of the mind.

The Pharisees reacted in anger and ready to commit violence to the apparent claim that Jesus made, as being more important than their Father Abraham, as the Son of YHWH. This was too much for them to grasp. Jesus was speaking blasphemy into their ears.

Note: For those who are convinced they read into verse 58 and conclude that Jesus is calling himself YHWH at the expense of the glaring context and the discussion between Christ and the Pharisees they must know that the English translated words or expression 'I am' or 'I am he' in verse 58 is a common Greek expression used by all people as shown in other places of scripture. It should not be confused with a similar yet quite different Hebrew expression, used in Exodus and other places in the OT.

In fact the expression in Exodus is incorrectly translated. It should not be translated into English as 'I am.' It can be translated however as 'I am that or who I am' or I am what I will be.'

אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה ... אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִ אֲלֵיכֶֽם׃ (BHS)
I am who I am. . . . has sent me to you.
Ex 3:14 uses אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה, ’eh·yeh ’ă·šer ’eh·yeh, in Hebrew

Boondoggle noted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And lastly, there is no reason of any kind to capitalize the words 'I am' in verse John 8:58 except for ignorance, deception, intellectual dishonesty and or Trinity bias.

I never appealed to any capitalization. You're taken liberties with all these "boondoggles".... Can we focus?

Now in Exodus 3:14 the expression 'I am who I am' can be capitalized to emphasize a description of YHWH. Although not the incorrect form of the 'I am' expression - used again to deceive and relate to John 8:58, as an example.

A little more background:

God YHWH identifies Himself with a name having four possible meanings, each one perfectly accurate.
"I am what I am";
"I am who I am";

Okay.

"I will be what I will be";
"I will be who I will be";

Nonsense. Such a statement implies change. Which destories Immutability. I thought even Unitarians believed in the Immutability of Deity.

The reason all four translations are accurate is that in Hebrew it not have a word for the present tense of the verb "to be." In other words, there is no Hebrew word for "am" or "is" or "are." Therefore, in order to say "I am Joseph," for example, one would say "Ani Joseph" ("I Joseph")." The absence of the present tense of "to be" is not unique to Hebrew; it is also true of Arabic and Russian, among other languages. So here, when God uses the future tense of the verb "to be," it literally means, "I will be."

No one can make such a claim from ancient Hebrew. Hebrew is a very early Semitic language and has a late connect to Arabic. There is ZERO evidence to believe they originally shared the same semitic range. There is a reason you're appealing to what you think you know about Hebrew. You can not such nonsense from the Greek language.

Either way, you're still not dealing with "BEFORE" Abraham.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Agreed, denying any actual previous state of being besides in the mind and planned future of YHWH.

Before Abraham was, I am.....

Before Abraham WAS...... Is a response directly the age they claimed concerning Jesus.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

 

[Doug Brents]

Scripture says that Christ (2nd and last Adam) was made lower than the angels and then of course lower than God or YHWH himself. He was made by his Father, YHWH himself, as also was the 1st Adam before him. So his (Christ) previous position was undefined or non-existent until he was begotten, was conceived and existed as the son of man with his Father's Spirit already in residence.

John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."

If YHWH created Jesus, then Jesus came into being through some other agency than Himself, yet there is not a single thing that came into being except through Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be a created being, nor can He be an angel, nor can He have been made just before having been incarnated. He existed before the beginning (John 1:2), and He was God (John 1:1).

 

[APAK]

John 1:3 - "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being."

If YHWH created Jesus, then Jesus came into being through some other agency than Himself, yet there is not a single thing that came into being except through Jesus. Therefore, Jesus cannot be a created being, nor can He be an angel, nor can He have been made just before having been incarnated. He existed before the beginning (John 1:2), and He was God (John 1:1).

And now can you unpack as they say or explain what you just wrote. If you want to of course...I do know the subject well..thanks

 

[Doug Brents]

And now can you unpack as they say or explain what you just wrote. If you want to of course...I do know the subject well..thanks

There is nothing that was created that Jesus did not create.
Jesus could not create Himself.
So Jesus can not be a created being.

Jesus cannot have come into being just before His incarnation, because He was the One who created everything that exists, before Adam.