Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God

[Handaan]

“Is God wise enough to make himself known? Is he good enough to make himself accessible? Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly? Or does God give us commands we can’t understand and a self-revelation that reveals more questions than answers?”

My answer is yes; he is wise enough, good enough, and gracious enough, but I do not think Calvinists can consistently say yes in the same sense because Calvinism burdens God with withholding, for most, what is necessary to know him and make him accessible.

And if Calvinism is true, God has surely not communicated in ways understandable to the meek, lowly, but only to the enlightened theological sophisticates.

 

[atpollard]

Your plethora of OPINION and complete lack of SCRIPTURE are both noted.
(A common symptom of CDS).

 

[Rowan]

To suggest that the merciful, longsuffering, gracious and loving God of the Bible would invent a dreadful doctrine like Calvinism, which would have us believe it is an act of ‘grace’ to select only certain people for heaven and, by exclusion, others for hell, comes perilously close to blasphemy.

The real God of the Bible who clearly says of Himself, ‘It is not My will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.’

Calvinism is a far cry from the God of the Bible who loves mankind so much that He sent His only Son to save whosoever calls on Him for mercy in the name of His resurrected Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[atpollard]

The real God of the Bible who clearly says of Himself, ‘It is not My will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.’

Ahh … a scripture reference.

1. What he says (including the whole paragraph) is: But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. - 2 Peter 3:8-10 [ESV]
   • “beloved” and “towards you” point to “any should perish” as being not wishing that “any of you/beloved” should perish.
   • The SUBJECT is End Times (Eschatology) and “Why does Jesus delay His return and punishment of the wicked?” The subject is not “Who does God desire to save?” (Soteriology)
2. That same God also said:
   • Romans 9:14-24 [ESV] 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
   • Isaiah 13:9-16 [ESV] 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, each will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land. 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
   • Psalm 2 [ESV] 1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, 3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill." 7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

 

[Darby]

Ahh … a scripture reference.

1. What he says (including the whole paragraph) is: But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. - 2 Peter 3:8-10 [ESV]
   • “beloved” and “towards you” point to “any should perish” as being not wishing that “any of you/beloved” should perish.
   • The SUBJECT is End Times (Eschatology) and “Why does Jesus delay His return and punishment of the wicked?” The subject is not “Who does God desire to save?” (Soteriology)
2. That same God also said:
   • Romans 9:14-24 [ESV] 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
   • Isaiah 13:9-16 [ESV] 9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, each will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land. 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
   • Psalm 2 [ESV] 1 Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, 3 "Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us." 4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. 5 Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, 6 "As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill." 7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, "You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel." 10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

And your point is?

 

[atpollard]

And your point is?

See post #2.

The point was … SCRIPTURE is better than OPINIONS.
The point is … “any verse quoted out of context is a pretext”.

 

[civic]

“Is God wise enough to make himself known? Is he good enough to make himself accessible? Is he gracious enough to communicate in ways that are understandable to the meek and lowly? Or does God give us commands we can’t understand and a self-revelation that reveals more questions than answers?”

My answer is yes; he is wise enough, good enough, and gracious enough, but I do not think Calvinists can consistently say yes in the same sense because Calvinism burdens God with withholding, for most, what is necessary to know him and make him accessible.

And if Calvinism is true, God has surely not communicated in ways understandable to the meek, lowly, but only to the enlightened theological sophisticates.

The major difference between the calvinist and non calvinist is Gods Sovereignty, Predestination and tulip.

 

[Darby]

See post #2.

The point was … SCRIPTURE is better than OPINIONS.
The point is … “any verse quoted out of context is a pretext”.

Calvinists are notorious for that.

Calvinists take verses out of context is a criticism of their theological approach, particularly their emphasis on certain doctrines like predestination and unconditional election. This criticism suggests they may interpret verses in a way that supports their existing beliefs, a practice known as eisegesis, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself. Critics point to specific examples, like Acts 13:48, where Calvinists interpret the order of the words to support their view of "unconditional election".

 

[Handaan]

Your plethora of OPINION and complete lack of SCRIPTURE are both noted.
(A common symptom of CDS).

sounds like an opinion

 

[Handaan]

Another way Calvinists misrepresent God is their insistence that 1 Corinthians 1:18-2:16 teaches that all lost people are morally incapable of understanding and accepting the gospel appeal, but is that really the intention of the apostle Paul? Let’s unpack this passage more fully.

Calvinists emphasize that their theology rests upon solid biblical exegesis, being “firmly based... upon the Word of God.” Some have gone so far as to assert that “this teaching was held to be the truth by the apostles,” and even that “Christ taught the doctrines that have come to be known as the five points of Calvinism.”

According to the Bible itself, however, no one should accept such claims without verifying them from Scripture. Any doctrine claiming to be based on the Bible must be carefully checked against the Bible— an option open to anyone who knows God’s Word. Relying upon one supposed biblical expert for an evaluation of the opinions of another would be going in circles.

No matter whose opinion one accepted, the end result would be the same: one would still be held hostage to human opinion. Each individual must personally check out all opinions directly from the Bible. Yet I was being advised to keep silent on the basis that only those with special qualifications were competent to check Calvinism against the Bible, an idea that in itself contradicted Scripture.

The inhabitants of the city of Berea, though not even Christians when Paul first preached the gospel to them, “searched the scriptures daily, [to see] whether those things [Paul preached] were so” (Acts 17: 11)— and they were commended as “noble” for doing so.

Yet leading Calvinists insist that it requires special (and apparently lengthy) preparation for anyone to become qualified to examine that peculiar doctrine in light of the Bible.

Why? After all, the Bible itself declares that a “young man” can understand its instructions and thereby “cleanse his way” (Psalm 119: 9

Even a child can know the Holy Scriptures through home instruction from a mother and grandmother 2 Timothy 1: 5; 3: 15.

Timothy was certainly not a seminary-trained theologian, yet Paul considered him competent to study and “rightly divide” God’s Word.

If special expertise were required to test Calvinism against Scripture, that would be proof enough that this peculiar doctrine did not come from valid biblical exegesis. Anything that enigmatic, by very definition, could not have been derived from the Bible, which itself claims to be written for the simple:

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise called: but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.... That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1: 26– 29

 

[atpollard]

sounds like an opinion

It is.
God did not write scripture specifically addressing Handaan’s lack of scripture, so I cannot quote what does not exist (a problem that never stopped FREE WILLIES from claiming the Bible teaches the opposite of what it states).

“No one can come to me” (John 6:44) really means EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has the innate power to come to Jesus or not based on their own Free Will … as an example.

 

[atpollard]

Calvinists are notorious for that.

‘Twas not a “Calvinist” (or even a Particular Baptist like myself) that removed 2 Peter 3:9 from its context to make a statement about Eschatological timing into a Doctrine on Universalism Soteriology.

 

[Handaan]

It is.
God did not write scripture specifically addressing Handaan’s lack of scripture, so I cannot quote what does not exist (a problem that never stopped FREE WILLIES from claiming the Bible teaches the opposite of what it states).

“No one can come to me” (John 6:44) really means EVERYONE WITHOUT EXCEPTION has the innate power to come to Jesus or not based on their own Free Will … as an example.

The human conscience and sense of right and wrong— which man has received from God himself— cry out in revulsion against Calvinist teaching.

Have not Calvin and Augustine misrepresented the loving, merciful God of the Bible? Did God create us to be mere puppets, with Him pulling the strings? Is our innate sense of making genuine choices of our own volition, sometimes rationally and at other times impulsively or even out of lust, a total delusion?

God appeals to human reason: “Come now and let us reason together, saith the Lord” (Isaiah 1: 18). No one can engage in reason without making choices between differing opinions, theories, options, or possible courses of action.

So we see without the power of choice, man is not a rational being. And surely, without the power to make genuine choices man could not be a morally responsible being, accountable to his Creator.

All through the Bible, man is called upon to choose between time and eternity, between Satan and God, between evil and good, between self and Christ.

 

[atpollard]

Have not Calvin and Augustine misrepresented the loving, merciful God of the Bible?

I have no idea.
I came to Christianity from atheism through a Wesleyan Holiness church and discovered 4 truths reading scripture:

1. People are no darn good.
2. Whatever the reason God chose us, It was NOT because we deserved it.
3. God does not TRY, God just DOES.
4. What God starts, God finishes.

Decades later, I discovered that something called “Reformed Baptist” believed the same thing that I believed from reading the Bible. Then I learned about this acronym called “T.U.L.I.P.” that had been used to express what I discovered since the 1930’s (based on some argument from the Synod of Dort with some guy named Arminius).

 

[Darby]

In this striking text found in Romans that bears on this issue of calvinism’s misrepresentation of God is the following:

“Therefore, just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification for all” (Rom 5:18).

What is particularly telling here is the parallel between the sin of Adam, which led to condemnation for “all” and the obedience of Christ (all the way to the cross) that provides justification for “all.”

Now clearly, “all” in the case of Adam includes every individual, so there is every reason to think the “all” in the case of Christ does too.