Diserner
Well-known member
Exploratory ramblings of the Calvinist stronghold passage from a questioning Arminian:
I thought I'd take the time to tackle the top Calvinistic passage just for my own benefit and to honestly look at both sides as I go through the text to the best of my ability. I rate them in convincingness as 1. Romans 9, 2. John 6, and 3. Ephesians 1. If anyone can say they can read Romans 9 and not at least consider some Calvinistic thoughts I think they are being dishonest. I have a perhaps unique perspective in that I don't feel I came from any religious camp but mostly just went straight to the Word, and that I felt free will was pretty much obvious until I came to Romans 9 and it definitely gave me pause. Here was an argument I hadn't truly seen put this way before in Scripture and my first thought was the fear I might be a vessel of wrath; which is an interesting first reaction, since all the Word up to that point pretty much was indicating you pursue righteousness and find it from your own volition, and if you're wicked it's because you, yourself, chose that. Of course also it was said that all the while God predestined you to have this opportunity to live for him.
Yet here was something different, something where nothing I did mattered and God just put me in a slot I had absolutely no choice about, and that of course was disconcerting, not because I was the person objecting back to God “why did you make me like this,” but because I honestly wasn't sure of which way he made me. At that point I was ready to submit to whatever I had to (like I had a choice, right?) but I sure didn't want to be a vessel of wrath. All this mind you was before I ever even had the slightest idea of what Calvinism or Arminianism was, in fact, I had never even heard the terms before at this point many years ago. I was a pretty new believer and pretty young just digging into the Word of God to see what's there. Once you get this idea it definitely can color how you see a lot of other passages. I don't think just John 6 or Ephesians 1 would be enough to build a Calvinistic theological castle without Romans 9, indeed I've heard them say “it sounds like it is directly arguing with an Arminian!” And having now studied it a lot more, especially over the last few years, I just wanted to go through the chapter factoring in both my own thoughts and everything I've heard, but hopefully without a bias as much as possible. But first one more preliminary explanation of the problems I feel are at stake.
I thought I'd take the time to tackle the top Calvinistic passage just for my own benefit and to honestly look at both sides as I go through the text to the best of my ability. I rate them in convincingness as 1. Romans 9, 2. John 6, and 3. Ephesians 1. If anyone can say they can read Romans 9 and not at least consider some Calvinistic thoughts I think they are being dishonest. I have a perhaps unique perspective in that I don't feel I came from any religious camp but mostly just went straight to the Word, and that I felt free will was pretty much obvious until I came to Romans 9 and it definitely gave me pause. Here was an argument I hadn't truly seen put this way before in Scripture and my first thought was the fear I might be a vessel of wrath; which is an interesting first reaction, since all the Word up to that point pretty much was indicating you pursue righteousness and find it from your own volition, and if you're wicked it's because you, yourself, chose that. Of course also it was said that all the while God predestined you to have this opportunity to live for him.
Yet here was something different, something where nothing I did mattered and God just put me in a slot I had absolutely no choice about, and that of course was disconcerting, not because I was the person objecting back to God “why did you make me like this,” but because I honestly wasn't sure of which way he made me. At that point I was ready to submit to whatever I had to (like I had a choice, right?) but I sure didn't want to be a vessel of wrath. All this mind you was before I ever even had the slightest idea of what Calvinism or Arminianism was, in fact, I had never even heard the terms before at this point many years ago. I was a pretty new believer and pretty young just digging into the Word of God to see what's there. Once you get this idea it definitely can color how you see a lot of other passages. I don't think just John 6 or Ephesians 1 would be enough to build a Calvinistic theological castle without Romans 9, indeed I've heard them say “it sounds like it is directly arguing with an Arminian!” And having now studied it a lot more, especially over the last few years, I just wanted to go through the chapter factoring in both my own thoughts and everything I've heard, but hopefully without a bias as much as possible. But first one more preliminary explanation of the problems I feel are at stake.
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