All Roads Lead to Rome

[jeremiah1five]

The Hebrew Scripture is the 39 "books" called the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms. These writings describe God's covenant relationship with Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13) and his Hebrew seed: Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's twelve sons and their descendants identified as the twelve tribes (sons) of Israel and their descendants or simply called "Israel."

However, there is a theology among present-day evangelicals who believe God has extended His salvation to non-Hebrews called "Gentiles", a theology which is in error and has been in error since the first century and its erroneous interpretation of the Hebrew Scripture. Most of this erroneous interpretation rests on the term "Gentiles" found in the Jewish writings called the New Covenant writings or just New Testament.

From the first century many fail to rightly understand who (the) "Gentiles" are in the text. There is a literal tendency to interpret "Gentiles" as non-Hebrews and this is where the error is made. Compounding this error many take the New Covenant writings made exclusively by Jews or mixed-race Jews such as Luke and believe and teach these New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation as written to non-Hebrew Gentiles. But a closer - and honest - understanding of the first century Church and those who are members fail to understand the gospel of Jesus Christ as the fulfillment of Promises and prophecy God made to Israel that He would send a Redeemer who would sit on the throne of David and deliver Israel from all her enemies - including sin and death.

During the first century the salvation of the LORD did not remain Hebrew as Promised by God and was spuriously applied to include non-Hebrew Gentiles, which became the basis of what would centuries later be deemed the Gentile Church. Nothing can be further from the truth. The Hebrew Scripture describes the God of Abraham making covenant with Abraham and his biological seed and the writings that became the Old Testament reveals God saving Israel through Promises and covenant that non-Hebrew Gentiles cannot find in the writings of the Old Testament. In short, God has covenant with Israel but cannot present any passage of Scripture that records God making covenant for salvation - as described in the (Ceremonial) Law of God - of God making covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. Nor can they offer up the name of this Gentile with which they claim God has covenant with for their salvation just as Scripture names the descendant of Eber, Abraham, with which God DID make covenant with and the history behind Abraham's seed and God's special relationship with this people called "the Jews." It is gravely inconsistent for those who acknowledge God's covenant relationship with the Jews for their salvation and yet cannot bring any evidence of Scripture in which God makes covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles that record a relationship such as what God has with Abraham and his biological seed. So, without Biblical proof many hold to the existence of TWO Churches, one Hebrew/Jewish and the other non-Hebrew or Gentile. How did this error come to be what it is today? Not to mention the theology that Gentiles have replaced Israel in the central plan of God for salvation of people.

This error is explainable, but truth is very difficult to be received since for nearly two thousand years many believe God actually planned to save non-Hebrew Gentiles despite evidence and existence of covenant in which to do this. One of the errors can be traced back - in my view - to the misinterpretation of what the "stumbling block" is identified as in the Bible God mentioned in the Old Testament which prevented many Jews of the time and beyond to the truth of their visitation of the God of Abraham upon the Hebrew people in the Person of Yeshua bar Yosef, the son of Mary and stepfather, Joseph. Many do not understand the persecution of the first century Christians by the Jewish people of the time. Nor have they understood the involvement of Rome and their desire to divide the Jews and from there the theology of the two-church theology takes off and becomes the prevailing theology of our time.

Why do "all roads lead to Rome"?

The answer to that statement goes deeper than it seems on the surface, yet it helps understand how the error began and what the truth of God is with regard to His purpose in creating man and with and their salvation according to the real plan of God towards the Hebrew people. The Scripture reveals all. A little reason along with history also goes far in understanding not only the question but the answer the Scripture reveals.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Ten Tribe Diaspora:
When the Assyrians conquered the ten northern kingdom tribes of Israel (722 BC) many were exiled back to Assyria.

The Assyrian Records (The Annals of Sargon II)​

The most specific figure comes from the Annals of Sargon II, the Assyrian king who completed the siege. In his inscriptions found at Khorsabad, he boasts of his victory:
"I besieged and conquered Samaria... 27,290 people who lived in it I carried away."
In the Assyrian "Calculated Frightfulness" policy, this number likely represents the elite—the craftsmen, soldiers, priests, and landowners—rather than the entire population. By removing the leadership and the skilled labor, the Assyrians ensured the remaining populace could not easily revolt.
The King James Version describes the event in 2 Kings 17:6:

6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes. 2 Kings 17:6.

The biblical text does not provide a specific census for the exile, but it emphasizes the total displacement of the northern tribes’ national identity. This event is the scriptural origin of the "Ten Lost Tribes."

Jewish and Rabbinical Perspectives​

From a theological and historical Hebrew perspective, the number of exiles is viewed through the lens of the Galut (Exile) and the subsequent "mixing" of populations:

• The Remnant: While 27,290 were taken to Assyria, many Israelites fled south to the Kingdom of Judah. Archaeological evidence in Jerusalem shows a massive population spike during this era, suggesting a large influx of refugees from the north.
• The Replacement: To prevent the land from becoming desolate or rebellious, the Assyrians brought in foreign peoples from Babylon, Cuthah, and Hamath (2 Kings 17:24).
• The Samaritans: Rabbinical thought identifies the resulting population—the mixture of the remaining Israelites and these foreign settlers—as the origins of the Samaritans (Shomronim).
• The "Lost" Status: The Sages in the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 110b) debate whether the Ten Tribes will ever return. Rabbi Akiva suggested they would not, while Rabbi Eliezer argued that just as a day grows dark and then light again, the exiled Israelites would eventually emerge from their "darkness."

Modern Historical Estimates: Total population displacement (including those who fled to Judah or died during the siege) likely reached into the hundreds of thousands, though the specific group deported "back to Assyria" is generally accepted as the figure cited by Sargon II.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The Timeline of Generations​

In the ancient Near East and within biblical genealogy, a generation is typically calculated as 20 to 25 years (the time from the birth of a parent to the birth of their first child).

• The Gap Between Exiles: There were approximately 136 years between the fall of the Northern Kingdom (Samaria) and the fall of the Southern Kingdom (Jerusalem). This accounts for roughly 5 to 6 generations of "Lost Tribes" living in Assyrian territories before the inhabitants of Judah joined the Diaspora in Babylon.

The "Mixed-Race" and Demographic Reality​

The concept of "mixed" heritage during these periods is central to both the historical and Rabbinical understanding of the Diaspora:

• The Northern Tribes (The Ten Lost Tribes): Unlike the later Babylonian exile, the Assyrians practiced a policy of total ethnic "shuffling." They brought in foreigners to settle in Samaria while deporting Israelites to various corners of the empire (Halah, Habor, and the cities of the Medes).
• The Samaritans: In the Land of Israel, the remaining Israelites intermarried with the imported Gentile populations (from Babylon, Cuthah, Ava, etc.). By the time of the return from Babylon (c. 538 BC), these people were viewed by the returning Judeans as a mixed-race group, which created the long-standing religious and social rift between Jews and Samaritans.
• In the Diaspora: In Assyria and Media, the northern tribes largely assimilated over the centuries. Historically, this makes tracking "generations" difficult after the first century of exile, as they ceased to maintain a distinct national identity, leading to the Rabbinical designation of them being "swallowed up" among the nations.

Hebrew and Rabbinical Calculation of Generations​

From a Hebrew perspective, the "generations" are often viewed through the lens of Seder Olam Rabbah (a 2nd-century Hebrew chronology):

• The "Ten Generations" Rule: There is a recurring motif in Jewish thought regarding ten generations as a threshold for change or judgment (e.g., from Adam to Noah, or Noah to Abraham).

By the time of the Second Temple’s dedication, those born in Gentile lands had become the majority of the global Jewish population—a reality that persists into the modern era, where the vast majority of generations in Jewish history have been born in the Galut (Exile).

 

[jeremiah1five]

It has been estimated that approximately 29-35 generations of Jews and mixed-race Jews grew up in exile in Gentile lands like Assyria and Babylon and in Gentile lands in-between. Without a Tabernacle or Temple or organized religious leaders practicing Mosaic Christianity many Jews grew up as Gentile heavily influenced by Greek culture. That's a great deal of assimilation. Yes, there were Jews who were older and kept for the most part their Hebrew religion. But children born through those 700 years knew almost nothing of their Hebrew heritage. For generations of Hebrew births that grew up they grew up as Gentile. They wore Gentile clothing, spoke Greek, ate Gentile foods, ran around with their new Gentile friends. They dated and eventually married their Gentile spouses, had mixed-race births of many ethnicities besides Assyrian and Babylonian. They spoke Gentile and Greek languages:

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and , Pamphylia in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Acts 2:8–11.

Seventeen dialects and languages of the Gentile race. SEVENTEEN!

Gentile and Greek culture became deeply integrated into the lives and traditions of the Hebrew people. Jews that grew up in exile lost their Hebrew culture. They were in time ignorant of their unique history and religious culture. For all intents and purposes Jews grew up as Gentile. For 700 years this was the life of a Hebrew in Exile in Assyria and Babylonia and in Gentile lands in-between. Even circumcision of Jewish males during this time by Hebrew parents decreased. You could not in time tell the difference between a Jewish male and a Gentile male in the bathhouses. Twenty-seven thousand two hundred and ninety souls (the elite according to Sargon II)!

The 27,290 Israelites taken by Assyria faced a high cultural death rate. Because they were dispersed into small pockets across the empire, their ability to maintain endogamy (marrying within the faith) collapsed within a few generations.

• The "Mixing" Factor: High mortality from local wars and the lack of a central religious authority (no Temple, no Law) meant that survivors often married into Gentile families to ensure the survival of their lineage.
• The Math: If we apply the 0.4% net growth rate (which accounts for high death rates), the 27,290 would have grown to roughly 450,000 by 22 BC. However, because of assimilation, these 450,000 were no longer "Jewish" in practice; they were ethnically diluted into the Medes and Persians.

"And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee" (Deuteronomy 28:37). The high death rate and "scattering" were seen as the curse, while the surviving "remnant" (She'ar) was the blessing. The Sages taught that the Shechinah (Divine Presence) went into exile with the people. This "Presence" was viewed as the biological shield that prevented the death rate from ever reaching the point of total extinction. Even when the "bones were dry," the promise of the Covenant ensured that the birth rate would eventually prevail. The Promise of the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant!

By the time of the birth of Jesus the Jews were scattered EVERYWHERE within and among Gentile lands. Jesus knew this. There was a remnant of Jews allowed to return to Israel by Babylonian king Cyrus the Great and Jews did return. Their story is recorded in Ezra, Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah, and most prominently, Esther.

A significant portion of 1 Chronicles (Chapter 9) and the opening chapters of Ezra and Nehemiah are dedicated to "the children of the province that went up out of the captivity" (Ezra 2:1). From a Rabbinical perspective, these lists were essential to prove that the returning families had not "mixed" their lineage during the generations spent in Babylon, ensuring the purity of the priesthood and the Davidic line. Jesus himself was mixed-race (Ruth), a fact many Christians point to in their erroneous theology of Gentile salvation. Jesus even prevented the good news (gospel) to be preached to Gentiles when He sent His twelve disciples out to the "lost sheep of the House of Israel."

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5–6.

Here is something else of interest and significance. When Cyrus allowed the Jews and mixed-race Jews to return to the Holy Land this group came out of Babylon. The Babylonians conquered and exiled the two tribes - Judah and Benjamin - the two tribes of the southern kingdom of Judah. But when the remnant of these two southern kingdom tribes returned to the Promised Land, they didn't take the name of Judah. They called themselves after the northern kingdom: Israel. WHY did they do this? The bottom line had been established.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Right before Jesus ascended from the Mount of Olives, He gave instructions to His eleven disciples in the following command:

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8.

The Mount of Olives is east of Jerusalem and what Jesus was telling His eleven disciples is to go to Jews and mixed-race Jews living in these areas and tell them their Messiah had come and that God has kept His Promise. The Promise is found in Deuteronomy 18:15 and verse 18:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deuteronomy 18:15.

and

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deuteronomy 18:18.

Due to the Assyrian and Babylonian Conquests of both the northern kingdom tribes and the southern kingdom tribes, many of the Hebrew people had been Exiled into these respective countries and lived there are in-between Gentile cities and towns. These Jews lived in these locations for about 722 years before the first advent of the Christ in the first century AD. As described above approximately 29-35 generations of Jews grew up in Gentile lands heavily influenced by Greco-Roman culture. Jews were assimilated into these cultures and lost their Hebrew heritage in life and practice. So, what Jesus was commanding His disciples was to go into these locations: Jerusalem (west), Judaea (south), Samaria (north), and the uttermost parts of the earth (east - into Mesopotamia and the Orient), because that's where the majority of all living Jews and mixed-race Jews lived.

The New Covenant writings (New Testament) record that ten days after Jesus' ascension the Promised Holy Spirit descended and the eleven disciples gathered in an upper room somewhere in Jerusalem became the first recipients of the Spirit's Presence and began to speak in tongues. This was the 'power' Jesus Promised to give His disciples and a Promise by God to Israel. And that day three thousand Jews were 'baptized' in the Spirit and were born-again and saved. Every day from that moment thousands of Jews and mixed-race Jews were saved by God as Promised many times in the Hebrew Scripture. The Church Jesus Promised to build had been built. It was a Church populated by Jews.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The so-called "Great Commission" was a commission. It was a command by the King of the Jews to distribute one central message to Jews and mixed-race Jews living in Gentile lands and who have lost their Hebrew heritage among Gentile peoples. The message was simple: God has kept His Promise (Deut. 18:15, 18.) THIS was the good news. THIS was the gospel. It was a message from God, King of the Jews, to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The other particulars about Jesus as the lamb of God, the Prophet like unto Moses, the Great Deliverer of the Jews, Israel's Messiah, ran in the peripheral to that one truth that God has kept His Promise and the day of the salvation of the Jews had come.

But God had placed a stumbling block in front of the Jews and only those who had retained their heritage, who lived in and around Israel and who would see as a problem to accepting Jesus as Israel's Lord and Savior. It was found in the Law of Moses. And Jews who worshiped in the Temple and those Jews who would come to Jerusalem for the Feasts and other high days in the Hebrew religion. They knew the Law and they knew it well. For in the Law God told Moses that anyone who hung on a tree was cursed. This is what kept most practicing Jews at bay and in time, once Biblical Christianity grew along with the Jewish Church even led to persecution of Christians, first by their fellow Jews, and later by the Romans.

Jews could not reconcile the preaching that Israel's Messiah and King had been crucified, literally hung on a tree, and died. And yet there was preaching that this same Jesus had resurrected from the dead, an empty tomb had been investigated, and eleven men along with several women, were all testifying that it was true, Jesus had conquered death and ascended in the clouds and departed. Now, with the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) Israel had entered the New Covenant era. And in time, through study of the Old Testament, the New Covenant doctrine was being disseminated among the Jews. And when the stumbling block presented itself, the disciples went to mixed-race Jews to tell them of their heritage, of Moses and the prophets, of the God of Abraham.
Mixed-race Jews who grew up in Gentile lands and 'lost' knowledge of their Hebrew heritage had no stumbling block to consult; they were ignorant of God's Law. They had to be taught anew of the great history their ancestors endured and experienced and they were receptive of such preaching. And not only that, but many uncircumcised, mixed-race Jews were like sponges soaking up the stories told them by God's messengers. Within a few years a new group of believers were joining the Jewish Church. For God was keeping His Promise to them that if they were of Abraham's seed, they were in covenant with the God of Israel.

But there were Judaizers like Peter, James, and John. There were others whom the Scripture does not name. They entered the local churches where Jews had congregated and taught these "Gentiles" of Jewish ancestry had to be circumcised in order to be saved and joined to the Abraham Covenant in which God mandated circumcision as a sign of covenant and to separate them from real Gentiles that had no Hebrew ancestry. The arguments became such that the believers sent Saul and Barnabas back to Jerusalem to consult the apostles and elders on the question. When they arrived at Jerusalem the question was discussed in what became known as the Jerusalem Council (ca. AD 50.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

In his letter Saul wrote to Jews and mixed-race Jews all over the Roman Empire, especially Ephesus. He wrote:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh (uncircumcised Jews), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:11–13.

"Far off." That's interesting. Luke said the same thing about Jews and mixed-race Jews who grew up as Gentile in Gentile lands heavily influenced for generations by Greco-Roman culture. He said (quoting Pete)

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

Having "lost" their Hebrew heritage because of Greek assimilation these Jews were "without Christ" and "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" NOT "aliens from the covenant of Israel" but from the commonwealth. As a rabbi and Pharisee Saul knew Jews and only Jews were all in covenant with God, so it wasn't necessary to say, "covenant of Israel."

Abraham was called. Isaac was called. Jacob was called. Joseph was called. Moses was called. Joshua was called. .... David was called. The prophets were called. Jesus was called. The disciples were called. Saul was called. Anybody and everybody who was of the seed of Abraham was called at the appointed time in their lives.

They were "strangers from the covenants of promise." Strangers and estranged. They grew up Gentile.

They had no hope worshiping Gentile gods of wood and stone.

And they were "without God in the world" because of their ignorance and lack of knowledge of their Hebrew heritage. But God does not forget His people. He said, "I will NEVER leave nor forsake you."
And He never did. God is always on time. Every time. All the time.

Jews for Jesus and Jesus for the Jews.

Another bottom line is established.

 

[WilliamC]

In his letter Saul wrote to Jews and mixed-race Jews all over the Roman Empire, especially Ephesus. He wrote:

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh (uncircumcised Jews), who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:11–13.

"Far off." That's interesting. Luke said the same thing about Jews and mixed-race Jews who grew up as Gentile in Gentile lands heavily influenced for generations by Greco-Roman culture. He said (quoting Pete)

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:39.

Having "lost" their Hebrew heritage because of Greek assimilation these Jews were "without Christ" and "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" NOT "aliens from the covenant of Israel" but from the commonwealth. As a rabbi and Pharisee Saul knew Jews and only Jews were all in covenant with God, so it wasn't necessary to say, "covenant of Israel."

Abraham was called. Isaac was called. Jacob was called. Joseph was called. Moses was called. Joshua was called. .... David was called. The prophets were called. Jesus was called. The disciples were called. Saul was called. Anybody and everybody who was of the seed of Abraham was called at the appointed time in their lives.

They were "strangers from the covenants of promise." Strangers and estranged. They grew up Gentile.

They had no hope worshiping Gentile gods of wood and stone.

And they were "without God in the world" because of their ignorance and lack of knowledge of their Hebrew heritage. But God does not forget His people. He said, "I will NEVER leave nor forsake you."
And He never did. God is always on time. Every time. All the time.

Jews for Jesus and Jesus for the Jews.

Another bottom line is established.

As cool as you may think this sounds... there is a major problem. There is hardly any way that the majority of the population, on the earth can possibly track their roots back to Judaism. So, according to you, then most of the world is lost because they cant prove they come from Judaism? Is that your premise?? It's not God's, as He is no respecter of persons.... Whosoever...
Next thing you will come up with, is that all these genealogy sites of today, is an effort to trace ones roots back to Judaism!

 

[jeremiah1five]

As cool as you may think this sounds... there is a major problem. There is hardly any way that the majority of the population, on the earth can possibly track their roots back to Judaism. So, according to you, then most of the world is lost because they cant prove they come from Judaism? Is that your premise?? It's not God's, as He is no respecter of persons.... Whosoever...
Next thing you will come up with, is that all these genealogy sites of today, is an effort to trace ones roots back to Judaism!

God IS a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel (THE PERSON) and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain (THE PERSON) and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Genesis 4:4–5.

Now, explain it away. That is the typical response from those who hold a contrary opinion and reject Scripture to keep thier contrary belief.

And we don't need to prove any Judaic inheritance. The LORD KNOWS them that are His.

 

[brightfame52]

More flesh/hebrew worship

 

[WilliamC]

God IS a respecter of persons:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel (THE PERSON) and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain (THE PERSON) and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. Genesis 4:4–5.

I see you interjected "(the person)".... that is your opinion being interjected, that God is a respecter of person! (It is you who goes against the Word of God, that God is no respecter Acts 10:3,4 ; Rom. 2:11 ; Gal. 3:28 ; Eph. 6:9) It is always about sin that God is against. Cain obviously did not follow what God asked concerning the offerings! And Cains willingness to break the rules, and decide for himself what he thought was right, led to his separation from God, which produces sin. (Gen.4:7).

Now, explain it away.

I will leave that up to your faulty logic.

That is the typical response from those who hold a contrary opinion and reject Scripture to keep thier contrary belief.

Better look in the mirror!

And we don't need to prove any Judaic inheritance. The LORD KNOWS them that are His.

Then, stop your soapbox drama!

 

[jeremiah1five]

I see you interjected "(the person)".... that is your opinion being interjected, that God is a respecter of person!

So, Abel and Cain are not persons?

(It is you who goes against the Word of God, that God is no respecter Acts 10:3,4 ; Rom. 2:11 ; Gal. 3:28 ; Eph. 6:9)

I see when you come across seemingly two opposing Scripture you choose the one that fits your theology. That's being dishonest with Scripture. And you're dishonest.

It is always about sin that God is against. Cain obviously did not follow what God asked concerning the offerings! And Cains willingness to break the rules, and decide for himself what he thought was right, led to his separation from God, which produces sin. (Gen.4:7).

Typical false Constantinian Gentile theology.

I will leave that up to your faulty logic.

So, you're unwilling to be honest with Scripture. Bad for you. I recognize the spirit.

Better look in the mirror!

Then, stop your soapbox drama!

I'm looking for true believers who are honest with God and His Word.
That's NOT you.

 

[WilliamC]

So, Abel and Cain are not persons?

They are people, but God is NOT judging them as a race, but based on their obedience to Him. As He does ALL of us!

I see when you come across seemingly two opposing Scripture you choose the one that fits your theology. That's being dishonest with Scripture. And you're dishonest.

I try and reconcile all the Scripture concerning the subject. What I do not do is proof text one verse, or interject something that is not in the subject matter. You are the one being dishonest with you personal opinions.

Typical false Constantinian Gentile theology.

Never heard of such an interpretation until I heard you coin such! Seems to be a pattern of yours... making things up.

So, you're unwilling to be honest with Scripture. Bad for you. I recognize the spirit.

You obviously recognize some kind of spirit... but the proof is in the pudding!

I'm looking for true believers who are honest with God and His Word.

As all followers of God and His Word are. But we are told to test the spirits.

That's NOT you.

Ah, there it is... you pretending to be judge and jury because of pressure. I suggest you prove all things before your pride gets the better of you, Cain!

 

[jeremiah1five]

They are people, but God is NOT judging them as a race, but based on their obedience to Him. As He does ALL of us!

Two men are not a race. They are individuals and sons of Adam. God was addressing the PERSONS as the text says.

I try and reconcile all the Scripture concerning the subject. What I do not do is proof text one verse, or interject something that is not in the subject matter. You are the one being dishonest with you personal opinions.

No you don't. You don't reconcile. I just showed you a passage that seemingly contradicts your passage in Acts. Instead of studying more to come to the knowledge of the truth you chose your passage over the text in Genesis 4. That's dishonest.

Never heard of such an interpretation until I heard you coin such! Seems to be a pattern of yours... making things up.

You obviously recognize some kind of spirit... but the proof is in the pudding!

As all followers of God and His Word are. But we are told to test the spirits.

You didn't even test the Holy Spirit who Authored the Scripture. You chose your passage in Acts over Genesis 4. That's dishonest.

Ah, there it is... you pretending to be judge and jury because of pressure. I suggest you prove all things before your pride gets the better of you, Cain!

That's right. I am judge and jury.

I judge between good and evil and dishonesty is evil.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14.

I also judge between truth and lies.

 

[WilliamC]

Two men are not a race. They are individuals and sons of Adam. God was addressing the PERSONS as the text says.

What is the term you have used as of late.... Adamites???
The subject matter was respect to the offering, and who was, and was not obeying. (doest well). What is the saying.... God hates the sin, but loves the sinner!

No you don't. You don't reconcile. I just showed you a passage that seemingly contradicts your passage in Acts. Instead of studying more to come to the knowledge of the truth you chose your passage over the text in Genesis 4. That's dishonest.

You are the dishonest one.... you try and prop up your jereology without reconciling Scripture! The passage you presented shows that the offering was the real problem! Kids have learned that in church for eons! Teaching that God's standards are to be carried out to His bidding.... not to anyone else's way.

You didn't even test the Holy Spirit who Authored the Scripture. You chose your passage in Acts over Genesis 4. That's dishonest.

How do you know I didn't test the Holy Spirit?.... because I didn't see it your way? Last time I checked, you are not the Holy Spirit! I gave multiple verses that show that God is NOT a respecter of persons! Go ahead, tell us that Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were not a race! Unless you think "your" interpretation is the new criteria?

That's right. I am judge and jury.

You are not! You are acting no better than the accuser himself!

I judge between good and evil and dishonesty is evil.

You are not a judge of anyone. I thought you knew the Scriptures?? There is only One Judge! Only He is uniquely qualified to assess the true moral state of individuals.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:14.

Discern does not mean... judge!

I also judge between truth and lies.

Again, you are in no position to judge anyone!

 

[brightfame52]

I also judge between truth and lies.

Have you judged you into hebrew worship ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

What is the term you have used as of late.... Adamites???

Ishmaelites are from Ishmael, Jacobites are from Jacob, etc. Before all these tribes and families there was only one people: Adamites. From Adam.

The subject matter was respect to the offering, and who was, and was not obeying. (doest well). What is the saying.... God hates the sin, but loves the sinner!

No, The text names Abel and Cain. God had respect to Abel and his offering but to Cain and his offering God had not respect.
Learn to read. No, learn to ACCEPT what is written and not reject it.

And God hates SIN and SINNER.

You are the dishonest one.... you try and prop up your jereology without reconciling Scripture! The passage you presented shows that the offering was the real problem! Kids have learned that in church for eons! Teaching that God's standards are to be carried out to His bidding.... not to anyone else's way.

If it was the sacrificial offering alone God would not NAME ABEL AND CAIN.
Duh.

How do you know I didn't test the Holy Spirit?.... because I didn't see it your way? Last time I checked, you are not the Holy Spirit! I gave multiple verses that show that God is NOT a respecter of persons! Go ahead, tell us that Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were not a race! Unless you think "your" interpretation is the new criteria?

I don't care if all the Bible says ONE THING, if there's ONE passage that contradicts all the others then you have not found the truth.
God DOES NOT LIE. He names Abel and Cain:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Genesis 4:4–5.

Get a clue.

You are not! You are acting no better than the accuser himself!

You are not a judge of anyone. I thought you knew the Scriptures?? There is only One Judge! Only He is uniquely qualified to assess the true moral state of individuals.

Discern does not mean... judge!

Again, you are in no position to judge anyone!

Yes, I am. I judge every day. Between good and evil,

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebbrews 5:14.

Discern means judicial estimation. JUDGE.

truth and lies,

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1.

right and wrong. Even in others.

AND YOU are wrong.

 

[WilliamC]

Ishmaelites are from Ishmael, Jacobites are from Jacob, etc. Before all these tribes and families there was only one people: Adamites. From Adam.

and where do we find this term in Scripture? I think it is safe to say... one race, from Adam!

No, The text names Abel and Cain. God had respect to Abel and his offering but to Cain and his offering God had not respect.
Learn to read. No, learn to ACCEPT what is written and not reject it.

Sure, it names them both,but it goes much further...it actually highlights the quality and intent of both offerings making distinctions, rather than favoritism of individuals. It was about acceptable worship and obedience.

And God hates SIN and SINNER.

That's not what Scripture shows. God has an unconditional love for sinners. (Which we ALL are!)
Rom. 5:8- But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
However, even though God loves humanity (sinners), he does not clear the guilty without repentance. (Eph. 4:22-24)

If it was the sacrificial offering alone God would not NAME ABEL AND CAIN.
Duh.

Duh, indeed! Who was offering the sacrifices? Which sacrifice was acceptable and from whom?

I don't care if all the Bible says ONE THING, if there's ONE passage that contradicts all the others then you have not found the truth.

Or maybe someone has twisted the Scriptures, which Peter said happens! The fact remains, that God expects His followers to build on a truth with multiple fact.

God DOES NOT LIE. He names Abel and Cain:

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Genesis 4:4–5.

No one has said God has lied... He did indeed name Cain and Abel! However God did mention the offerings of both and the distinction .... one displayed faith, the other.... not so much.

Get a clue.

The same back at you.

Yes, I am. I judge every day. Between good and evil,

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebbrews 5:14.

Discern means judicial estimation. JUDGE.

Discernment aims for understanding, while judgement seeks to evaluate or condemn. Discernment considers all aspects of a situation before a conclusion, while judging is more critical focusing on making a evaluation, an opinion to something or someone. Discernment is about seeking truth and wisdom, while judging is about bias.

truth and lies,

And?

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1.

right and wrong. Even in others.

We don't judge people, we try the spirits, if they align with God.

AND YOU are wrong.

I think we can leave that up to Scripture to decide.

 

[jeremiah1five]

and where do we find this term in Scripture? I think it is safe to say... one race, from Adam!

Where do you get 'race' from? There was no 'race', no 'humans' just Adam, and God named BOTH the man and woman "Adam."

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. Genesis 5:2.

Sure, it names them both,but it goes much further...it actually highlights the quality and intent of both offerings making distinctions, rather than favoritism of individuals. It was about acceptable worship and obedience.

Man, get biblical and get out. God had respect to Abel and no respect to Cain the PERSONS.

That's not what Scripture shows. God has an unconditional love for sinners. (Which we ALL are!)
Rom. 5:8- But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
However, even though God loves humanity (sinners), he does not clear the guilty without repentance. (Eph. 4:22-24)

That's because you replace Israel with Gentiles but as rabbi and Pharisee Saul KNOWS the covenant is with Abraham and HIS SEED. The whole counsel of God is written to Israel and Israel alone. Any Jew - including Saul - would be outcast and attacked by his Jewish brethren if he ever sought to circumcise Gentiles or teach Gentiles anything of the Torah. Saul is a Jew and he KNOWS God's covenants are with the Hebrew people. The New Covenant writings (Matthew - Revelation) are written to explain and reveal from the Old Testament everything written in the OT about the prophesied New Covenant. It's all written in the OT. There is nothing new under the sun especially not the New Covenant. It's all revealed in shadow and prophecy in the OT. Get a clue!

Duh, indeed! Who was offering the sacrifices? Which sacrifice was acceptable and from whom?

That's not the point. You said God is not a respecter of persons and I provided Scripture that contradicts YOU.

Or maybe someone has twisted the Scriptures, which Peter said happens! The fact remains, that God expects His followers to build on a truth with multiple fact.

Peter was talking about scriptures as in writings NOT as in inspired writings. What I have written here is scripture. It's writings.

No one has said God has lied... He did indeed name Cain and Abel! However God did mention the offerings of both and the distinction .... one displayed faith, the other.... not so much.
The same back at you.

Discernment aims for understanding, while judgement seeks to evaluate or condemn. Discernment considers all aspects of a situation before a conclusion, while judging is more critical focusing on making a evaluation, an opinion to something or someone. Discernment is about seeking truth and wisdom, while judging is about bias.

Do you judge in your day to day life? Why don't you use illegal drugs? Because you may have JUDGED it evil or destructive. You judge what to wear in the morning, or whether you want chocolate or vanilla. The issue is judging righteous judgment and this I have done. For such will come back to me in its time. But I've been the recipient of unrighteous judgment, being accused of something I not done. It happens to all.

And?
We don't judge people, we try the spirits, if they align with God.

Let me guess. You believe in demons and that they are fallen angels of some capacity. Totally incorrect. If they are fallen angels why did they coin a new word to describe them and not the OT "malek" or NT "angelos"?
The "spirits" are the attitudes of men. They originate from men good or bad. You ever walk into a room and feel an 'oppression'? Someone in that room is having attitude. And attitude is important in life. Can you rightly worship God with a bad attitude or 'spirit'? Attitudes are invisible, yet they are powerful to the person exuding them or destructive to all. Besides this Peter, Isaiah, and Jude all say the angels that sinned are locked up awaiting judgment:

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 2:4.

And this locking up happened BEFORE God created man.

I think we can leave that up to Scripture to decide.

Scripture YOU reject.

 

[brightfame52]

Man, get biblical and get out. God had respect to Abel and no respect to Cain the PERSONS

Was Abel a Hebrew